In this episode, Austin Grigg and I dug into Ian Morgan Cron’s book “The Road Back to You“.
You can listen to the episode here:
For more on Austin, check out his company at KalonCreative.com.
We mentioned Annie Downs and her “That Sounds Fun” podcast. Back in the summer of 2020 she did a series related to enneagram called “EnneaSummer”, and those episodes were excellent.
Full Transcript:
Mickey: There is one quality that trumps all evident in virtually every great entrepreneur, manager, and leader, that quality is self-awareness. The best thing leaders can do to improve their effectiveness is to become more aware of what motivates them and their decision making. So this is from the book, the Road Back to You Talking about the Enneagram, and with me to discuss that today is Austin Grigg.
Austin, welcome.
Austin: Hey, thanks Mickey. Thanks for having me.
Mickey: Of course, I’m excited to dig into this, so I know you have some thoughts you kinda wanna start with just to kind of set the stage a little bit for what the Enneagram is and why it matters. So I’d love to hear some of that from you.
Austin: Yeah, sure. So, yeah, this book was kind of the introduction, uh, for me to the Enneagram you know, really the Enneagram has been kind of a really helpful to tool. To me. I think the heart of it is about kind of self-awareness, and that’s kind of what he lays out in the book is that again, it’s just a tool.
There’s no magic to it. It’s not . You know, uh, something you can just say is like, exactly right or wrong, but it’s a way of kinda understanding yourself. And, you know, I’ve done a bunch of personality assessments, Myers-Briggs, uh, strengths, things like that. [00:01:00] And, uh, those were helpful. But when I read some of the things about the Enneagram, it was like reading my mail.
It was like, who, who’s in my head? You know? And so I think that’s the unique thing about it, is it can kind of, uh, it gets down into that like deep motivational level.
Mickey: Yep. No, I like that. And yeah, for those not familiar with Enneagram is basically nine types. Everyone is one of nine types. Really everyone is . Part of all nine, but there’s one that kind of stands out the most for any given person. And so we’ll go through those in a minute. Um, one thing in the book I saw that I thought was nice that people are concerned about this kind of thing, um, it said quote, I don’t wanna be pigeonholed or put in a box.
People express this concern to Suzanne and me all the time. Fear not the Enneagram doesn’t put you in a box. It shows you the box you’re already in and how to get out of it. So it helps you better understand who you are and where your shortcomings are and what you can do to fix that. And I think it’s fantastic for doing that.
Austin: Yeah, no, that’s a great quote. And I, I think to me, the other thing that was really helpful is, and they kind of touch on this in the book, and this book is really more of kind of an introduction. The Enneagram can be kind of a deep hole that
Mickey: Mm-Hmm. for sure.
Austin: dive down. Uh, but one of the things that I’d really like that they talk about [00:02:00] um, each ver each number has kind of a healthy version of themselves, maybe like an average version and then like an unhealthy version.
And
Mickey: Yep.
Austin: that’s a really Helpful way to see that because, you know, you may associate yourself with a particular number and say, oh, but I don’t like those traits. And part of the Enneagram is it kind of gives you tools to, to grow, right? To go from maybe, um, you know, the, my number would be, uh, the Enneagram one, which is can be referred to as the perfectionist or the reformer. Um, you know, and I, in maybe an unhealthy state, it can be very perfectionistic. Right. You know,
Mickey: Yep.
Austin: wanting, uh, to be able to, you know, can’t moving past things. But in a healthy state, I take those You know, good qualities of that, right? And I can kind of move that forward. And so I think that that’s been a really helpful piece of this is it’s not just helping you understand who you are, but maybe what does that growth journey look like, uh, for your particular personality?
Mickey: I like that. One thing I like about it too is how relatively simple it is. I mean, it’s not as deep perhaps as disc in some of the other ones, but if you tell me you’re a low D and a [00:03:00] low I and a high S and a high C, I gotta think for a while to figure out what all that means. And that’s the same with most of the tests.
But if you tell me you’re a one, like okay, I have a pretty good feel for at least where to start with a one. That’s pretty cool. And the other thing I would wanna say to people listening is there’s a lot of online tests you can take for the Enneagram, but it’s not that simple. And most folks have to take multiple tests and kinda read what the results are.
Reading this book, the Road Back to You is fantastic just to understand those and that’s why we’re gonna go through all, all nine types here briefly, just ’cause it, it takes more digging than just taking a quick test. I mean, it took me the better part of a couple months to really figure out which number I was.
I got it narrowed down to a few and eventually got there. And I think most people are the same, where the tests were all over the map. You know, I had like five different numbers at the test that I was, but once I figured out who I was, then it all made much more sense. And yeah, like you said.
Austin: Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things the book touches on is, and this was kind of the key unlock for me in understanding my own number and maybe having conversations with friends and family to kind of help them understand their number was it’s really not about you do, but why you do it.
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Austin: have some good [00:04:00] examples about, you know, um, someone may get, uh, angry about something, but You know, three different numbers may have kinda a similar reaction to something, but the reason why they’re upset about that could be very different. And so that was a, a really big piece. ’cause the, the assessments can be helpful, but yeah, they only kind of tell you so much.
Right? ’cause it’s kind of, you know, would you do this? Or how would you respond to this? I always overthink those as. part of my Enneagram one is, you know,
Mickey: Yeah.
Austin: OO overthinking the assessments, but I think that’s why a book like this can be helpful ’cause it helps you think about, okay. What were some of those intrinsic mo motivations, um, for why you kind of got to where you did
Mickey: I like that. That’s well said. That that’s the main thing that sets us apart really too, is Yeah, the motivations behind things. So let’s kinda walk through these here. We’ll start with you with, uh, Enneagram type one, the perfectionist.
Austin: Mm-Hmm.
Mickey: From the book, they say these are ethical, dedicated, reliable, motivated by desire to live the right way, improve the world, and avoid fault and blame.
These are people like Jerry Seinfeld, Hillary Clinton, Nelson Mandela. [00:05:00] Actually a few folks from our team, Ali, on our team and Ashlea are both type ones. Tell me a bit more about this from, from your perspective.
Austin: Yeah, that’s an interesting, uh, group to be, uh, lumped into there. But, uh, yeah, no, I mean I think that’s really pretty spot on. I think that was again, another. Big insight for me, and part of it was realizing, you know, I very much see the world as, uh, right and wrong, right? I,
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Austin: things into a bucket, and part of the growth of an Enneagram one is being able to be okay with some of that gray. Um, but the, uh, I think the, the right and wrong aspect, you know, we have a, a big sense of duty, right? Wanting to do the right thing, uh,
Mickey: Yep.
Austin: which can be again, be a very positive thing. And so I definitely connected with, uh, those aspects.
Mickey: It is funny you said duty. ’cause the other quote I had here is from the time they get up to the time they lay down, ones perceive a world rife with airs and feel a bound in duty to correct it. So again, feel and back to sort of the motivation so you have this motivation to correct these, these wrong things you see.
And again, it can be healthy to a point, but it can become [00:06:00] destructive if taken too far, so.
Austin: right. Yeah, exactly.
Mickey: Awesome. Uh, so type two is the helper. I’m pretty familiar with this because this is my wife and she fits this perfectly. Uh, but helpers are warm, caring, and giving. They’re motiva motivated by need to be loved and needed and to avoid acknowledging their own needs.
And so that’s kinda the problem I see is that, actually, I’ll pull, there’s another quote here that says it perfectly average, Suzanne. Average twos tell Suzanne me. They have the ability to sense and then fulfill the needs of others. The key word here is sense. You don’t have to tell twos what you require.
They just know the problem is they assume everyone else has the same ability to sense other people’s inner life as well. And so my wife absolutely has the sense to detect what people need and she’s had to learn over these that other people don’t have that sense, that other people need to be told what they need.
And it’s frustrating. It was, well, it was very frustrating for her. Still is, to a degree, I’m sure. But understanding that that’s sort of the superpower she has . It makes her understand that better. This is, some famous ones are Mother Theresa, Desmond Tutu, princess Diana. Um, again, the famous ones are what people are guessing.
They were not all these people took the test, but you [00:07:00] can see people in, in popular culture and get a good feel for that. But yeah, twos are very interesting. Do you have any twos you know of that or how it’s affected your interactions?
Austin: Um, I don’t have anyone right off hand. My wife is a six. And so that’s kind of what
Mickey: Okay.
Austin: about. I think that dynamic, that interpersonal dynamic is really interesting and it really has helped me understand her. You know, we will get to the, the six here in a minute, but, um, a lot of their, uh, motivations are driven by, by fear.
Right? Not
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Austin: kind of what the, the what ifs, what could happen, right? And for a long time that would drive me crazy. Like, okay, why can’t we just, you know, Plan, you know, plan to go do something and she’s thinking about all the things that go wrong and what needs to get packed and, but there’s a benefit to it too, right?
You know, we, we always go prepared. And so it’s like trying to understand where someone’s coming from. It really is helpful ’cause it’s given me a lot of empathy for her. And just like you were talking about toos, uh, you know, we can, if we understand someone’s motivation, it helps us. See through their eyes a little bit, right?
And maybe say, oh, you know, I’m asking her to go on a hike. And she’s thinking about, you know, the [00:08:00] bear that could come outta the woods or,
Mickey: right.
Austin: isn’t going through my mind. And so that’s been a helpful way to, to process that.
Mickey: Yeah, same with twos. Like I know I cannot see the needs that my wife has, but I’m trying really hard to see them because I know that she expects I can and she’s trying hard not to judge me for not seeing them as much. So that’s understanding helps. Yeah. A lot of you listening may be familiar with Kathy Gruin.
She’s been big in the Atlanta WordPress community for years. She’s a two as well. And if you know Kathy at all, that’s a helper. A hundred percent right there. So,
Austin: Yeah.
Mickey: um, yes, that’s,
Austin: life.
Mickey: they are, they’re fantastic. Type three is the performer. So success-oriented, image conscious, and wired for productivity. They’re motivated by a need to be or appear to be successful and to avoid failure.
So this, the people like Taylor Swift, Mitt Romney, Tom Cruise, and I have a bunch of in my life here. I know Ally for a while was really fluctuating issue one or she a three because I could see her being a three. Uh, I think she settled on one, but certainly there’s others that we know about. And yeah, these are the the go-getters in the world.
Austin: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. If you want to have a, a task and make sure it’s gonna get [00:09:00] done, uh, know, or, or someone to charge, kind of charge the hill. They’re a good group to, uh, to work with.
Mickey: Yeah, and I’m, I’m curious, I wonder if they’re the right ones for a task to be done. I think they’re the ones for sure that are gonna reach for the stars. I don’t know if they’re always the best ones to actually build the ship to get there, but
Austin: Yeah, no, you’re right. I, I, as I was saying that, I was thinking, okay, no, they’re not as, maybe they may not be as detail oriented, but they’re, they’re the ones that have the big vision, right?
Mickey: yeah.
Austin: that are kind of wanting to make something happen. Uh, but yeah, maybe they need a, uh, one alongside them to, to make sure things happen.
’cause ones are very detail oriented,
Mickey: Again, it’s funny, I put the notes together for this years ago, but if you wanna talk about success oriented performers, Taylor Swift is on the list here, and I think that fits that definition about as good as you could possibly be. So,
Austin: well I was thinking about like even Tom Cruise in that list, you know, he’s done just how many movies. I mean,
Mickey: mm-Hmm.
Austin: seems like he never stops. Um, and so that’s kind of an interesting one as well. These people who have just kind of an incredible drive and ability to, uh, keep, keep performing, keep uh, kind of putting things out there.[00:10:00]
Mickey: Yep. That’s, that’s their need. Again, they’re, they’re, that in innate desire is to keep performing. So, yeah. Um, he’s a good example too. Uh, Enneagram type four is the romantic. They’re creative, sensitive and moody, motivated by a need to be . Understood. Experience their oversized feelings and avoid being ordinary.
Um, I actually don’t know any personal fours and I have a list of perhaps 50 people I know that I know their numbers for When I, I kind of collect ’em. I, I see ’em post on Facebook about it. I’ll kind of grab those and some of that, I dunno. Any fours? Um, the ones I’ve seen, um, famous fours in theory, again, Amy Winehouse, Thomas Merton, and Vincent Van Gogh.
Could be, could be fours. I think that kind of fits there. But do you, do you know any fours in your life? Have you worked with any before that you know of?
Austin: I have a suspicion of, uh, one possible four, but, uh, the one that sticks out to me is the Ian who wrote the book, I, I’m pretty sure he self-identifies as a four.
Mickey: Oh, it could be. Yeah.
Austin: oftentimes, you know, I think the four is associated with kind of artists, right? Um,
Mickey: Yep.
Austin: um, they can be, uh, you know, a lot of that creativity.
They can, uh, [00:11:00] ha have like this deep uh, space, but also can again, have like kind of a shadow side. Is that, uh, more temperamental or kind of, uh, going into themselves? They’re usually the ones I think I read as well that don’t, uh, want to admit that, that that’s their number because they wanna be unique.
Uh, so they
Mickey: Right.
Austin: resist personality tests, which is kind of funny.
Mickey: Right. But yeah, they do tend to sit in that four. And it’s interesting ’cause it is the creative types generally that fall into four. And I run a creative firm and none of our people are four. See, I can know very clearly the . The three people you know, Ashley, Allie, and Elena have come to mind on our team.
And I know for a fact none of them are fours or even close to it. So it’s interesting that, yeah, being creative doesn’t always mean you’re a four, so it’s whatever. Just you’re the most, again, they’re all probably a four to a degree, but there’s other numbers that are, that are bigger.
Austin: Sure.
Mickey: Uh, type five is the investigator.
This is me, . Um, they’re analytical, detached, in private, motivated, motivated by need to gain knowledge, conserve energy, and avoid relying on others. And I saw another note in the book that summed up pretty well. It said [00:12:00] fives, collect knowledge, knowledge and information of almost any kind. Even the strangest information provides five with a sense of control and a defense against feelings of inadequacy.
Fives also collect information or knowledge because they don’t want to appear foolish or uninformed or be humiliated for not having the correct answer and that. Absolutely is me there too. When I get asked questions, especially by clients or colleagues or whatever, I feel bad if I don’t have the answer, even if it’s something I shouldn’t know.
So I’ll collect all the knowledge I can to try to always have the answer. Um, a, a friend of mine that was more familiar with Enneagram prior to me, I was trying to figure out my number and I was showing him how I was going about it. I was taking all these tests and had these cards printed up. I was doing all this research.
He said, the way you’re going about it means you’re five. Whatever the cards tell you, just the way you’re approaching this makes you a five. And so this is like, uh, Stephen Hawking and Bill Gates. Those kind of folks are five. But
Austin: Yeah.
Mickey: very interesting seeing this Yeah. Through that lens. Um, what are your thoughts on fives?
Austin: No, that’s great. Um, well, it’s funny to me too, just that your podcast stacking knowledge, uh, fits right,
Mickey: Right, correct.
Austin: that.
Mickey: Exactly.
Austin: Um, yeah, no. I’m curious with, uh, for you, you know, [00:13:00] fives can have that, uh, desire to, uh, like go really deep into things. Do you find yourself like a big researcher?
Do you kind of dig, dig in really deep and uh, go like super deep into a topic? Or is it more like broad or both?
Mickey: A little of both. I think more broad than anything. I wanna not miss the obvious questions. I see like the, the funny videos on YouTube of people that miss the obvious question on who wants to be a millionaire Wheel of Fortune, whatever. And that always scares me. Like that’s why I never wanna go into a game show ’cause I know there’s little gaps in my knowledge and I might miss that one obvious thing that everyone else knows that I never happen to learn.
And that’s what scares me. So I wanna go pretty wide.
Austin: Mm-Hmm.
Mickey: but yeah, again, it can be the dark side of that is to, to go more and more and more and more and be consumed by that. And I have to be careful ’cause I flirt with that edge at times already. But
Austin: Okay.
Mickey: Like you said, this podcast is a great example. I already read a lot of books to try to satisfy my five, but now I wanna go back and revisit the books and make sure I really understand everything there.
And this podcast is a way to do that. So
Austin: Yeah.
Mickey: yeah, good example.
Austin: kind of a superpower, right? And being able to help others with it. I think that’s one of the cool things is recognizing, you know, each of the numbers [00:14:00] really has, uh, some strengths, or you could call ’em superpowers, and how can we leverage those, uh, for others, right?
Um, you know, if, if My number, kind of being a, uh, you know, being principled, being self-control, you know, I can help, you know, improve people. Um, I have to be very careful how I do that ’cause uh, you know, but I, I can try to encourage them and see ways that they can grow. You know, a two, gonna be a helper, right?
Can come alongside people. Uh, A five I think has the ability to distill that knowledge and really come around people. So I think that’s one of the cool things is just thinking about You know, as you under get to understand yourself better, you know, how are you wired, how are you built to be able to bring that into the world, to help help those around you.
Mickey: Yep. Well said. I like that. Let’s move on to six, which I think you have more familiarity with than I do, but sixes are committed, practical and witty. They’re worst case scenario thinkers who are motivated by fear and the need for security. So this is people like Ellen DeGeneres, John Stewart, and Frodo Baggins, if you wanna get into to fake [00:15:00] people there.
But yeah, you have much more experience with six. I know a couple of them, but not very well. You know yours better than I do. So yeah, curious what you have to say.
Austin: Yeah, it’s interesting ’cause I wanna say there’s, uh, I think one of the stats in the book was that I think 40 to 50% of the population are estimated to be sixes. So I think they’re one of the largest, uh, categories of, um,
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Austin: of numbers kind of in the population. Uh, but yeah, my wife, uh, one of the things that’s great about her, they talk about in the book is, uh, loyalty. They’re incredibly loyal. Um, and I think part of that is that root Desire of, of fear, you know, a motivation of fear. You know, I think they want when they, they maybe are a little bit slower to trust people, but once they go deep with someone, they’re very loyal to them. Like if someone, you know, they want to create that kind of bond. Um, and so yeah, I, I would definitely describe my wife as incredibly loyal. Uh, very thoughtful. Um, but definitely the worst case scenario, thinking like I said it, and in, in the good ways. It’s, you know, Hey, we’re going to the beach and she Knows every single thing to pack. [00:16:00] We’re never missing anything because she’s thought of it ahead of time. Uh, but it can also, uh, paralyze her on the unhealthy side.
Mickey: Yeah, and it, it can be for, for not just her though too, but sixes tend to be doing things to help everyone with that fear. It says like in here, they’re productive, logical thinkers who almost always organize their thoughts and actions around what would be most advantageous for the common good. And they’re loyal, honest, and reliable, like you said, too.
So yeah, sixes are, and I’ve heard that too, that sixes are the most common type by far, in theory, but in my list, they’re one of the smallest sections. I really . Don’t know many sixes and I’m not sure, not sure why, but just kind of how it’s worked out, I guess.
Austin: Yeah. I, I wonder how they like try to figure that out. I mean, I guess you could do some samplings, but, uh, yeah, I guess any of that’s just kind of statistical analysis.
Mickey: Right. And I think some of it would be, I think some would self-select more like I think the type of person that would take, like you said earlier, some types would be less likely, like a four is less likely to want to take a personality test. So there may be more fours out there than we know about, but they’re just the kind of person that says, eh, I’m not gonna take that thing.
So they don’t show up in the data of how many are in each type. So
Austin: That’s [00:17:00] kinda
Mickey: that
Austin: bias, right?
Mickey: exactly.
Austin: at the, the ones that self-select.
Mickey: Yep. Um, so type seven is the enthusiast. They’re fun, spontaneous and adventurous. They’re motivated by a need to be happy, to plan stimulated experiences and to avoid pain. And for me, when I hear seven, I think spontaneous, I think this kind of person says, Hey, I’m blowing off this afternoon.
I’m gonna the beach, you know, I’m gonna go surfing or whatever. And you know, where we go surfing around here, but you get the idea. But this is, um, famous people like Robin Williams and Stephen Colbert. Um, and I have a handful of folks I know that . Some say there’s seven. I questioned a few of them that they, I’m not sure if they’re really sevens because I think seven is like the cool one you want to be.
I wanna be the guy that’s gonna go hiking on the weekends and do all this. And so I think people wanna be sevens but aren’t necessarily, but certainly quite a few people are. I’m curious. Yeah. Do you know any sevens in your life?
Austin: I, I’m pretty sure my middle son is a, a seven, so
Mickey: nice.
Austin: always looking for what’s the next fun thing. I mean, we can finish, you know, finish. I. Uh, the, you know, the best day we’ve had and he’s on, okay, what’s, what’s next? Right? You know, he’s always looking for, uh, the fun thing. He’s incredibly [00:18:00] outgoing. Um, so yeah, I think I think about him. And then, uh, the other thing I think about is, uh, uh, Annie F Downs. So she self-identifies as a seven. She’s a podcast host
Mickey: Yep. Okay. I know her. Yeah.
Austin: that I learned a lot about the Enneagram. So she hosted, I can be another resource for people she hosted. Uh, they, she called it I think Enneagram Ennea Summer or something like that.
Mickey: Oh yeah, I did listen. Yeah, my wife had me listen to those ’cause she listened to her a lot. Yeah.
Austin: Yeah. So two years in a row, I think she did that and basically brought on, uh, people, uh, with, of different numbers basically. So each episode she would do, uh, I think like a guy and a girl who, uh, you know, identified as a one or identified as a seven or a six.
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Austin: was actually really helpful in understanding myself, hearing other people who were that number, talk about their experience. Um, and so, but yeah, she talks about being a seven. So her podcast is called, that Sounds fun. So she’s always
Mickey: Yep.
Austin: what’s the next fun thing.
Mickey: Nice. Um, another note from the book here said, yeah, it’s hard to get your head around it, but sevens are every bit as fearful as fives and sixes. Where they differ is in how they defend themselves against it. [00:19:00] Five’s wore off fear with knowledge, sixes with pessimism, and sevens with inexhaustible optimism.
So that sounds like your son there. He’s just inexhaustible, like he gets done with a fun day. Like, let’s go, let’s go hit more. So yeah, that’s, that’s what a seven is for sure. Uh, Enneagram eights are the challenger, sometimes known as the protector, the commanding intenses and confrontational, motivated by a need to be strong and avoid feeling weak or vulnerable.
Uh, this is MLK, Muhammad Ali, Angela Merkel, uh, folks like that. One, one fun note I saw from this is it says eights don’t feel like they have to be the person in control. It kind of feels like that’s what an eight is. They wanna command and they don’t have to be the person in control, they just don’t want to be controlled.
So they wanna have autonomy is what it is. And so, yeah, we have Elena on our team as an eight and she certainly fits that where yeah, she’s gonna be strong and give opinions and all the right things you want from someone designing, you know, doing design. They, you wanna hear what they have to say and fight for it, but again, they, she doesn’t have to be, you know, in control necessarily either.
So it’s kind of a good mix where they’ll . They’ll fight back, but not necessarily try to take over. Always. Some might, I guess, but yeah.
Austin: I guess [00:20:00] maybe on the healthier side, right? If,
Mickey: right. There you go.
Austin: they can be very strong, but also willing to, you know, engage and debate. Um, yeah, it’s a good distinction.
Mickey: Yeah. Yeah. It says Healthy eights are great friends, exceptional leaders and champions of those who cannot fight on their own behalf. And so I think, again, challenger and Protector, it’s the right, you know, this is the kinda person who’s gonna stand up if someone . It says an inappropriate comment about your wife while you’re out, you know, they’re gonna, they’re gonna do something about it versus let’s just go away.
They’re gonna, no, no, we’re gonna fight and make this right ’cause I’m gonna protect you. You know? Which again, could lead to bad things too, if taken too far. This is probably people that get in bar fights more often ’cause they’re always looking to protect their ego or whatever it is. So again, healthy versus unhealthy and all these, all these numbers.
But yeah, healthy aid is a fantastic person to have around for sure.
Austin: absolutely.
Mickey: And then the last one, type nine is the peacemaker. Uh, sometimes called the mediator. They’re pleasant, laid back, and accommodating. They’re motivated by need to keep the peace, merge with others and avoid conflict. So this is Barack Obama, Renee Zellweger and Bill Murray are the ones that I found that sound that way.
I could see Obama. I’m not sure I see the other two as much, but I don’t Bill Murray [00:21:00] especially. That seems weird. I’m not sure where I’d put ’em either. So. But I know a number of nines in my life and the ones I’ve seen here all fit. Um, Brooke and our team’s, our project manager, and she absolutely is a nine.
She’s the one that I think wanted to be a seven. She thought she was a seven at first. We’re like, you’re not a seven. I know we all wanna be sevens ’cause they’re so cool, but she’s a nine and she’s fantastic. I mean, leading projects and having to deal with clients versus us and getting everything done, like she’s able to keep the peace and get things done and keep it on track and it’s, it’s fantastic to have in that kind of role.
Austin: Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s really interesting. Yeah. I feel like that’s a, a great, uh, person to have, you know, in a team, right? Someone that can kind of bring people together, uh, see both sides of it, uh, and kind of make, make that piece is, is a huge skillset.
Mickey: Yep. Yeah. The, from the book here, it says they see and value the perspective of other people and can harmonize what seem to be IR irreconcilable points of view. They’re unselfish, flexible, and inclusive. So I mean, that’s what do you want in a project manager, but someone that can harmonize irreconcilable points of view, like that’s the perfect person to have there to, to sort that out.
So, and nines are fantastic. That’s, that’s the nine types. So for any of you that have not . [00:22:00] Gone through it before. I mean it, it’s certainly deeper than that. There’s quite a bit of reading around each type to really understand, and you may hear yourself a little bit in one of these now, but I certainly would encourage you to, to dig deeper and, and, you know, really figure out where you are and start paying attention to who others are.
Again, I love that for our team, I can know right away like, okay, Ashley’s a one and that means this. Again, we’ve, we’ve done disc profiles and stuff and we can talk and dig deeper. I don’t remember her disc offhand, or Margaret Brigg or all the, you know, all that stuff, but I can remember numbers very easily and so I like having just that, at least initial idea of who someone is based on that.
Austin: Right. Yeah. I think it is a, a nice way to be able to have a reference point, uh, for people. I think one of the things they do a good job of in the book is talking about making sure that you’re not putting people into a box with their number, right. Or saying, oh, you’re just being a three, or you’re just, you know, being a seven.
I think that’s something they are really clear about, and I think
Mickey: Correct. Yeah.
Austin: you, again, we’re all, like you said, we’re all Some portion of all nine types. And so, you know, we don’t wanna put people into a box, but again, it could be a way of helping us understand. So I think about it like, uh, in a more of an [00:23:00] interpersonal way.
Like with my wife, again, it’s gonna help me think, okay, where may she be coming from? Right? Or maybe I suggest something and she reacts in kind of a. a way I wouldn’t expect. And it’s like, oh, okay, maybe that helps me give, gives me some insight of, you know, hey, are you, you know, is that causing you to be fearful about this?
Or, um, you know, could we do this in a different way? And so I think that can be helpful. I’m curious how, how you use that in kind of a work context. there ways, as you’re kind of thinking about how you’re communicating or, um, you know, strengths of different team members, uh, what are the ways that you’ve kind of found that to be beneficial?
Mickey: So I think the big thing for me is that I always thought being a good manager, you know, good partner or whatever meant being nice. Being nice all the time. And that’s true, but nice is different to different people. I had a different business coach tell me years ago, like he knew every morning he’d go in and talk to Suzy.
And Suzy wanted you to be in and out of office in five seconds, say Good morning, get outta the way. When he went next door to Nicole, he knew he needed to spend 10 minutes because Nicole wants to unpack her weekend and talk more and like . So being nice is different. If he had spent five minutes with each of ’em, that would’ve been fair and nice, but [00:24:00] would’ve annoyed both of them ’cause he would’ve left the one too soon and stayed way around too long for the other.
So just understanding how people wanna be treated I think makes a big difference too.
Austin: Yeah,
Mickey: I get a lot outta that.
Austin: Yeah, that’s, no, that’s great. And I was thinking about, one of the things, I
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Austin: I pulled out talked about, uh, ones, yeah. So ones, uh, typically have trouble adapting to change, resent being interrupted when working on a project and globalize problems. And that’s very much me.
Like if I’m in the middle of something, you know, if It definitely irritates me for someone to come in and interrupt me, where like my business partner, he, he loves, he, I mean, he’s just such a people person and if someone walks in the door, he’s like, man, what a perfect excuse to get up and, you know, engage with them.
And I’m like, if you could’ve made an appointment and then come at that time, then we, you know, I would’ve been much
Mickey: right.
Austin: But yeah, you’re right. It’s, it’s the same interaction or the same thing, but it perceived in two different ways, so That’s great. Great
Mickey: Yeah, I’ll share one more quote. It’s a pretty long quote from the book, but I think summarizes everything we’ve said pretty well here. So from the book I’m reading here, Suzanne’s friend, Rebecca is a nurse who works with children with profound visual impairment. [00:25:00] As part of her job, she leads support groups for parents whose kids have just received a diagnosis.
These parents, mostly young mothers, are confused, hurt, and sometimes angry. And Rebecca provides guidance about navigating challenges that they never suspected life would visit on them. Apart from the practical advice, the most invaluable part of the workshops comes when Rebecca hands the parent’s eyeglasses that correlate to each child’s specific disability.
Almost always the parents burst into tears. I had no idea that this is the way my child sees the world. They tell her. Once they have the experience of observing their through their children’s eyes, they never experience the world in quite the same way Again, they may still be anger about the diagnosis, but they’re not frustrated with their child because even a brief exposure to, to the reality of how hard life is for these kids inspires in their parents only compassion.
This is the gift of the Enneagram. Sometimes people talk about the Enneagrams, a tool that reveals the lens through which people see the world. So I thought that was, yeah, a good way to put it. And I think we both kinda talked about that with our wives and specifically, and again, you with Brett even a little bit just yeah, we see how they see the world and we need to
Try to help that. You need to let your wife bring the bear spray on the, the hiking trip to Kennesaw Mountain. Even that’s unlikely. And I have to, [00:26:00] you know, try to see that my wife may be needing more help, that she’s not verbalizing ’cause I should magically see it. And so, yeah, seeing the world through their eyes is fantastic.
And Enneagram is, is great for that. So.
Austin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what a great, I remember reading about that, uh, moment in the book and yeah, what a great just perspective to have in general, if we can, if. Help put ourselves in other people’s shoes. Right. Uh, having compassion for them. Uh, I mean, it even just makes me think about a big part of, uh, my life.
My, my oldest son is on autism spectrum and, uh, for, for so long, you know, we really had some really challenging, uh, times with him and a lot of that came from, I was. Perceiving the way he was, uh, behaving as, uh, in a certain way. So I was perceiving it as disrespect or couldn’t understand why he would, you know, respond a certain way.
And as I began to understand and read about, you know, uh, some of the challenges he faces, some of the ways his brain processes things, it really gave me compassion because I began to see, oh, he’s not actually wanting to act that way. He’s, you know, he’s responding the only way he knows how.
Mickey: [00:27:00] Mm-Hmm.
Austin: I began responding in compassion. You know, it really changed the relationship. It allowed me to approach him a much different way where I’m trying to help him versus, uh, you know, being frustrated by him. And I think on a smaller scale, or in d you know, in different ways. You know, we interact with people every day. Right. And, you know, someone may I.
Respond in a negative way, or, you know, we may have challenging client emails, uh, but we don’t know kind of where they’re coming from or what’s happening. And if we can come with a compassionate lens, um, you know, in a c you know, a lens of kinda curiosity, uh, oftentimes we really can, uh, build relationships versus kind of, uh, you know, creating even more friction.
Mickey: Yeah. Yeah. I like that you said they come at us in a negative way, but they may not think it’s negative. They may, they think they’re telling the truth. They’re being just straightforward. And so, yeah, understanding and yeah, slowing down a little bit for some compassion is, is always a good thing. So, uh, Austin, this has been fantastic.
Uh, people wanna see more about you and your company. Where can they find you?
Austin: Yeah. Thanks Mickey. Yeah, they can go to, KalonCreative, and find more about us there.
Mickey: Cool. I’ll have a link to that in the show notes for people to find. So thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Austin: Absolutely. Thanks for having me on.
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