In this episode, Joshua McNary and I dig into David C. Baker’s book “The Business of Expertise“.
You can listen to the episode here:
For more on Joshua, you can find him at McNaryMarketing.com.
Also, here are the two images that we discuss on the show (which are explained in-depth in the book):
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Full Transcript:
Mickey: This passionate expertise manifesto is intended to elevate the impacts of advisors who sell insight as entrepreneurs. Three foundational chapters form the basis of the entire book. Experts develop insight by isolating patterns and data. They convert those insights to wealth by create crafting and unique positioning for which few available substitutes exist and their confidence grows as the marketplace embraces their application of expertise.
The next 15 chapters, building on that foundation each answer a single question, starting with the role of expertise in a developed society, how important it’s for experts to love the hard work required to hone their expertise, and how to see all that in the context of their own purpose in the world. So that was a quick summary of David C. Baker’s book, the Business of Expertise.
One of the favorite books I’ve read the last couple years, um, here to chat about with me today is Joshua McNary. So Josh, welcome to the show. Tell folks a bit about yourself.
Joshua: Hey Mickey. Thanks for having me here. So, yeah, I’m a, a business technologist on a mission to ensure technology is valuable and productive to my [00:01:00] clients. as a business
Mickey: All right.
Joshua: I help companies select the right technology and those leaders that need help, uh, get getting through their technology challenges.
I’m here. I’m, I’m your man. I’m here to help.
Mickey: Awesome. I like it. So you, you picked this book for today, so tell me, I mean, I love this book too. I’m glad you picked it. I’m excited to dig into this, but why’d you pick it? What’d you, what’d you find so great about this?
Joshua: Well, this book, even before I read it, was informative to my most recent transformation as an entrepreneur and as a business owner, uh, on this angle of business technology I just referenced. So,
Mickey: Yep. Yep.
Joshua: coach a number of years ago referenced, uh, one of the graphics that I know we had talked about prior to this, uh.
Starting recording this today and this idea of starting in the strategy room and then moving over to the implementation room or, or,
Mickey: Yep.
Joshua: uh, the doing room. And so, uh, that was a big change in my thinking a number of years ago. And I moved from being more of a, a, a technology vendor to a, to an actual, uh, advisor in the [00:02:00] sense that, uh, this expertise talks about. But then later on I read the book and I realized, wow,
Mickey: Gotcha.
Joshua: So that’s how I got introduced. Just this in the first place.
Mickey: Gotcha. Well let’s take into that then a little bit. ’cause I love his, yeah, he has this whole section about two rooms and one entrance where you have Yeah, the strategy room and the implementation room. And really any good expertise based business will bring everyone through strategy first, but it’s so easy ’cause people just want implementation.
Just building a new website, just start posting on social. Um, I’ll read a longer chunk from the book about that and then we can kind of unpack that a little bit. So he says. Um, I use what’s called the R two one E approach, two rooms, but only one entrance. Most firms are allowing new clients to enter either room from the outside, buying either a defined strategy plan, first, their preference, or moving straight to execution.
The entrance that tends to get the most use. Instead close off the outside entrance to the larger implementation room, forcing all new clients to enter by the strategy room. From there, they can choose to make their own arrangements or use the connecting door to the implementation room, but that bigger room is largely hidden to the public and is only there for the convenience of [00:03:00] clients.
Without any pressure to use it. So that was a fascinating one too, where we’ve sort of tried to do that, but I didn’t, didn’t put it in nearly that, that right kind of context. I thought he framed it so well.
Joshua: Absolutely. I mean it, uh, small anecdote here in my business, early on it was doing a lot of strategy work, kind of having the one room that they go through, but it
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Joshua: charging for strategy. basically
Mickey: Gotcha.
Joshua: And I think that’s what we do naturally as vendors, right?
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Joshua: practitioners, you know, we, we, that’s what we, so the idea of um, execution room being closed off and you have to go through a process that you know, you’ve defined as successful ’cause you’ve done it with clients many times before, that that is such a, uh, light bulb moment when you’re trying to move toward the expertise business.
’cause you have the expertise. Maybe when you’re starting, you
Mickey: Right,
Joshua: you know, you just need to go straight to
Mickey: right. There’s that too.
Joshua: but as you learn what works and what doesn’t work, the strategy, uh, room becomes so much more as a place to start.
Mickey: Right. And like you said, I think some of us, I know we did for [00:04:00] sure, we brought people through the strategy room, but almost for free as a way to get them to the execution room. So we start doing the work when he’s saying, you don’t even have to be the ones to do the work. The strategy is where the real value is.
So charge a lot for that. And if they want you to do the work too, great. If not, they still have a great strategy they can take elsewhere. And that was such a shift. It was not like, let’s hustle through the strategy so we can get to work. Let’s, let’s really think about what we’re doing. And that’s.
Joshua: if you hustle through it too, right? If,
Mickey: Right.
Oh, for sure. Yeah.
Joshua: cutter now, I mean, having a good strategy and having something you believe in with regards to your expertise. Is important. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t have that, right? But it should be well thought out and be worth it on its own.
And that’s the idea here. Uh, if you rush through too quickly, you often rush to a solution that’s not actually going to solve the problem. And that takes a change of mind with regards to the client as well, if they’re coming in with the diagnosis of what the problem is. And the reality is, is that the, uh, the diagnosis is wrong, meaning they go straight to some. Project that we can execute on, and, and you’ve not [00:05:00] stopped them as a good doctor would to find out what the real
Mickey: Right.
Joshua: you go do surgery on them. Well then you, you, you’re also doing a disservice to them there as well. So taking
Mickey: Yep.
Joshua: so much, uh, more powerful.
Mickey: I agree. And then really, if they do know exactly what they need and want to get it done, then they do need just a commodity company. They don’t need to pay. What firms like ours might charge for that. They could find just a freelancer to knock it out if they’re really that confident what it is. So it’s better for everyone if they just jump straight to that execution, if that’s what they need, rather than wasting all of our time and their money and stuff.
So, yeah, well said. Um, and that image you referenced here, we’ll put that in the show notes so people wanna see that. It’s a pretty simple picture of two rooms with one door that’s closed, but I think you kinda get the idea there. Um. One area of this book, he talked about a lot that I really like. ’cause I blog daily.
Um, mostly for myself. I think I’ve talked about it with you before. You know, I hope other people get some out of it, but it’s not for them. Um, it’s for me. But he, there’s three quick little quotes he said that kind of talked about that, that I thought they all stood out to me. He said, first, the primary beneficiary of every book is the author.
Because for me, anyway, [00:06:00] clarity comes in the articulation and not after it. So you’re talking about writing a book, but I think it kind of comes with that the, the act of writing is what leads our articulation. Um, another one he said, he said, if I didn’t write, I never know what I actually believe. And I hope reading this will inspire you to write for the same reason.
So again, the active writing helps. And then the last one, again, the same kind of thing. He said the same thing over and over, and I think repetition can be good. That’s something. A lot of the reading of Charlie Munger I’ve been doing lately. Charlie repeated himself over and over and I think that’s a good thing to, to be solid.
But he said quote, write all the time, not just to say something, but to figure out what you think. As Joan Didion noted quote, I write entirely to find out what I’m thinking, and I thought that was an interesting way to put it and it was fantastic. But yeah, that, that really spoke to me and helped me clarify why I write.
I don’t know. Did you get anything outta the writing piece? I know you, you write a good bit, not not daily, but you put out a good newsletter and you do some good stuff, so yeah.
Joshua: that. Yeah. I, I’ve always admired your, uh, as long as we’ve known each other doing so much writing, uh, I wish I could get to that level maybe someday. But yeah, I, I put out a weekly [00:07:00] newsletter, uh, right
Mickey: Mm-Hmm
Joshua: and I, I find the same, same thing you’re talking about what these quotes are talking about, that idea of, of allowing you to refine your expertise, figure out what you. in, I
Mickey: mm-Hmm.
Joshua: of journaling in a sense, right? In fact, one
Mickey: Right. Oh, yeah.
Joshua: is to start journaling more kind of on a personal level for the same reasons. To be able to process that information and, and move your thinking forward and not just be DIC ideas in your head. And so,
Mickey: Right.
Joshua: And what you’re talking about expertise business, I mean, there’s multiple benefits. I mean, there’s defining what you believe in, what your mission is, what you’re trying to fight for, that is going to attract people to you as the expert. That comes through this content generation. But then of course, then you could build that, use that content, build that content towards putting it out to the public and attracting people.
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Joshua: even though you’re not writing for them, like you said in a few moments ago, going to attract people that are like-minded or needing that material and that could then feed back into your expertise business. So
Mickey: Yep.
Joshua: multiple reasons to do it, of course. Um, but starting with the idea of what are, what are you defining?
What is your mission, what’s your [00:08:00] cause that you’re trying to go towards and. like this allows you to, to get to that point.
Mickey: Yeah, and journaling can be a good thing too. On my drive in this morning, I was listening to an episode of Jason Plummer’s Business Allergy podcast, and he talked, it was all about journaling, specifically about how when he gets just confused and has too much on his brain, he knows he needs to go journal to kind of get it all out.
And I kinda see blogging is just an extension of journaling. Not better or worse, but. I think journaling, at least for me, I can get lazy and kind of jot down some thoughts and call it good. But if I’m gonna publish it, even if it’s quote for me, I know other people are gonna read it. So forcing me to refine my thoughts a little more and just think through it a a bit further and can be good.
But any kind of writing, whether it’s journaling or blogging or David Baker does it largely through a book, although he blogs quite a bit too. I think getting that stuff out and knowing what you think is, is fantastic.
Joshua: Absolutely.
Mickey: Um. Another area he talked about, he talks a lot about positioning, you know, and he’ll talk about that, you know, in that, that picture where you talk about the two rooms using, you know, the strategies built on positioning.
Um, but he says expertise flows from focus, which flows from positioning. And then he did a longer quote, slightly longer [00:09:00] one, about pattern matching. He said, quote, without pattern matching. There’s no intelligence without similar scenarios. There’s no pattern matching without tight positioning. There are no similar scenarios.
Time and time again, you’ll come back to this realization and it will form the basis of everything you do. So he’s saying the more you can tightly position who you serve, you’ll see the same situations come up over and over. You’ll be better at matching those patterns and seeing, seeing the issues developed before people do and you can solve it better and thus be more of an expert that can get things done because you’ve seen that same situation over and over.
Um, I’d be curious your thoughts on positioning, because I know in our case. We’ve positioned a little bit differently. We don’t really have a vertical per se. We have kind of an niche there, but it’s more in terms of how we serve and the products we use and kind of different things there that we can see patterns in that Where, where do you see pattern matching and positioning in, in what you do?
Joshua: Yeah. Well, it’s evolved for me over the years from different angles.
Mickey: Oh, yeah. It evolves for all of us, for sure. Yeah.
Joshua: will always evolve, that’s the thing, right?
Mickey: Yeah.
Joshua: the idea of niching down, I mean, that’s the thing we tell our clients all, you know, you do, I do all the time, right? [00:10:00] We, we wanna niche down as
Mickey: Oh yeah.
Joshua: lets us gives focus to be able to actually work towards a goal, to actually have. Uh, uh, a lane to drive down versus trying to do the shotgun approach.
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Joshua: so that’s where this visual that we can share, you know, this tea visual, the broad, broad context, deep expertise concepts, uh, comes into play. But I guess for, for my challenge over the last couple years is I’ve refined from, I used to use the term marketing technologist with regards to high, talked about what I did.
Now, I, I said at the beginning of this, I use the term business technologist, so that’s broader
Mickey: Mm-Hmm. Right.
Joshua: But it’s also then, okay, the offerings I have underneath that going deeper, which is that idea of, of, of, uh, not simply taking the customer’s word for it kind of concept, actually digging in and getting into it in a, in a, in a deeper way, which is connected.
That other graphic we talked about, the strategy, I concept actually going deep upfront before you start trying to do the thing. So that’s how [00:11:00] I think about it in the sense of, okay, I am. Uh, in a sense offering more a broader perspective with regards to helping businesses. But at the same time, I’m also going deeper within that.
And that’s,
Mickey: Yep.
Joshua: t graphic in, in a sense.
Mickey: Yeah, a little, yeah, a little bit broad. And then, and I’m trying to do the same thing. I mean, the books I read, I’m trying to get some broad expert, not broad expertise, but broad knowledge across a variety of subjects, and then certainly deep in certain areas. Yeah. Um, at leads to another one, another quote I pulled here about really what it means to be an expert.
And this one affected us just a couple weeks ago with a lead that we lost because I didn’t follow this as close as I should have. But he said, quote, when you really need an expert, they tell you how it’s going to be at every step of the way. And you’re along for the ride. Whether it’s an attorney with high stakes litigation or a surgeon saving your life, you have all the permission power, but they have all the process power.
And that’s more how we should be too. And, and it’s tough because I want to respond to what clients think they want, but I gotta be better. I think about pushing back and saying, okay, I know you want that. Here’s why you shouldn’t. I’m the expert and I’ve seen this in this case, in this case, in this case, where that didn’t [00:12:00] work.
Um, and just, yeah, be the one that tells them where to go. Um, and I think you’ve probably seen that, especially with what you do, even, even more so probably than, than we have.
Joshua: especially in the last few years because I have been pushing back more. I mean, in the sales process, you could push back more as well. Just, you know, is this
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Joshua: right client period, are they a
Mickey: Right. Oh, for sure.
Joshua: and some of the pricing structures and things I put in place, the way I do proposals is the way I even pitch, uh, compared to how I used to, uh, when I was doing more of the execution or implementation room first.
You know, it’s, it’s a different angle on how I come at
Mickey: Right.
Joshua: even if they come to me wanting that. Um. So the, the, your willingness to say no, kind of as a key component of this from a standpoint of avoiding this problem, um, within the idea of them having the execution power and you being guiding them, uh, that is, that requires a level of trust. That
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Joshua: you
Mickey: yeah.
Joshua: the expert in the sense that they are willing to, to follow you [00:13:00] that way and, and maybe getting some quick wins along the way or doing smaller things at first that are powerful enough to, to move the needle so that then as you move into the engagement over time, you’re able to have that gravitas with them, uh, going forward.
And that’s partially connect back to that content piece and, and such I think in a
Mickey: Uh, that’s what I was gonna say. Yeah.
Joshua: you have people coming to you that are already following, you already understand, you already have connection to what you. Are talking about they engage with you that way. Well then that already did your qualification when they walk in your door to talk to sales and get into that first strategy room.
So that’s, um, that’s, I know that’s the part that I need to develop more as I’m evolving what I’m doing because a lot of my customers that I have now even are people that have worked with me in the past and recognize the older way I was doing things, and I had to kind of convert them in the sales process to how I’m
Mickey: Right. That too.
Joshua: which
Mickey: Yeah. So you mentioned
Joshua: but.
Mickey: Oh yeah, it, it’s tougher though. Yeah. I just read the book Persuasion. I think it was Robert Salini that wrote that. But it reminds me, so I mentioned Jason Blumer a little while to the ology show, but he’s, we’re a client of [00:14:00] his, he’s a CPA firm and we use him, but he did that where we trusted him quite a bit before we even met him because we saw him speak.
We listened to his podcast. I read, you know, blog posts of his, and yet he kind of built that trust ahead of time. So once we started engaging ahead, a much higher level of trust already just out of the shoot. Because he had done that work ahead of time, which is yeah. Much easier said than done. Uh, the other thing you kind of pointed toward was saying no, that wasn’t really what we were talking about there, but it certainly tied into it.
And something I’m trying to be better about is just, yeah, finding the right fit and finding the not right fit. Um, David, David Baker in the book talks a few times about that. A couple quotes here. I. A short one. He says, quote, under, build your capacity and have mo more. No conversations. You know, if you, if you’re don’t have a lot of extra capacity, it makes it so much easier to say no.
Versus if you have tons of extra staff sitting around and you gotta just get something to keep them busy, you’re gonna say yes to things you really shouldn’t. And he says that more clearly than I can. Here he says, quote. But the minute you upsize your capacity to handle the additional opportunity, instead of cleaning up your client base with every new business win, you lose the ability to say no to clients who aren’t a good fit [00:15:00] because you feel pressure to feed that new capacity that you’ve built.
And that just leads to trouble, um, and kind of points even to something Blair N says, so that David and Blair have a podcast called Two Bobs. If you have, if people have not checked out the number two bobs.com, it’s fantastic. But Blair has a saying I love. He says, without no, your yes is meaningless. And that one I love because when people say no repeatedly and they finally say yes, you’re more likely to listen.
Um, an example, like if there’s our, our mechanic, we have, we found a local mechanic that we love and we trust because we’ve come in a few times saying, Hey, we need you to fix this part of our car. He says. No, I don’t That thing’s good for another 10,000 miles. Don’t, don’t waste your money in that right now.
He said that a few times, but when you come and say, Hey, what do you think of this? He says, yes, you need to fix that. Well, shoot, I believe him. He’s not trying to rip me off ’cause he’s, he said no and I don’t need it. And he’ll say yes when I do. And so we try to do the same with our clients as well.
Saying, Hey, you shouldn’t spend money here. You shouldn’t spend money here, but I think you really need to to fix this piece. If they’ve heard the no enough that yes becomes more valuable, versus just send us money and we’ll do whatever you want. It’s, you know, you don’t really gain a lot of trust that way.
Joshua: and the timing of that could, can, it may not be at [00:16:00] the uh, syncing up at the same time. That could be over.
Mickey: Oh, for sure. Yes. Oh yeah.
Joshua: the no could be now and then three years later, the Yes comes because
Mickey: Yes. Oh, for sure. Yeah.
Joshua: perspective, because, because of the trust you built over time.
I’ve seen that over and over and over again. Now that,
Mickey: It was like with our mechanic. Yeah, we’re talking, yeah, six months or a year between conversations with him, and so he’s waiting years to do the work, but then when he does, I’m like, yes, absolutely. Whatever it takes. So,
Joshua: said than
Mickey: good point.
Joshua: need
Mickey: Oh yeah.
Joshua: And that’s going back to the other comment about the, the staff or the overhead that you have,
Mickey: Capacity. Exactly.
Joshua: that is. And so the idea of simplifying that as much as possible. I guess one other thing I wanna add that I’ve done in my business that is kind of related to this is that, so I still do have a support arm to my business, like a sub, like a.
Support ticket arm and maintenance
Mickey: Yep. We do too. Yeah.
Joshua: worked with over the years and I’m primarily working on the expertise side of things, but I
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Joshua: over here and support that. Um, and so there are situations where you might be able to have that, have a set up where you can, okay, they’re not a good [00:17:00] fit for your expertise, but you have that way you can pass it off or just maybe just refer it, you know, referral partners or something where
Mickey: sure.
Joshua: help them in some way, but you’re not trying to do it over here.
And it’s a very distinct. Thing you’re doing over here. There’s over there. And you know, with our
Mickey: That’s a good point.
Joshua: there, there might, you know, we might generate our own ways of doing that or, uh, progress out of that or, or or such, but that’s something that you keep in mind is like, there might be ways to do this.
Now that is a distraction to me. I think the author here would say that’s a distraction from your expertise business. But, you know, this is the way I’m able to still feel good about, uh, all the, all the clients that I service in the other way that would never actually be expertise clients that wouldn’t come with me.
I have many that have, but there’s some that just are not the right fit. As well. So
Mickey: Yeah.
Joshua: way of helping them, um, in the near term.
Mickey: Agree. And we have a very similar setup with us and I agree that David C. Baker would not be happy that either of us are doing that, but that’s okay. ’cause build some recurring revenue. It’s a good thing. But you mentioned referral partners too, and that’s a huge thing for us as well. I mean, I had a coffee this morning before I came in with a, another potential referral partner, not one that will likely [00:18:00] send us any business, but one that I can send other people to.
And I like to be that person. I say, if you know someone that needs marketing help, I’m happy to chat with ’em for a few minutes and. Maybe they’re a good fit for us, maybe they’re not, but at least get ’em pointed the right direction. And that again, makes me look good when I say, no, you’re not a good fit for us, but you should go talk to them.
It gets a friend of mine more business, so they’ll respect me more and the person that talked to me respects me, you know, in theory because I’m not just trying to take their business when I have no, you know, good, good use for it. So it can be a win-win, although it does take some time, you know, I’m having conversations that aren’t financially fruitful.
But I think in the long run it’s, it’s beneficial. And I know you do some of the same there as well.
Joshua: Yeah, absolutely.
Mickey: Um, I’ll kind of close this with one of my, a weird quote from the book, but I think it was kind of cool and kind of talks about why, why I like to write, uh, as much as I do. So he said it is about being, being morbidly curious about being curious about everything.
I think that’s, I, I’m one of those people that’s just curious about everything and I, I like to make notes of that. I think it ties back to, um, we’ve talked about the Enneagram on the show a few times. I’m Enneagram five, that’s the, you know, the researcher and I just have to know the answers and I feel [00:19:00] unequipped if I don’t, but.
In the book, he says, quote, you won’t be relevant for decades unless you’re morbidly curious In that pursuit, there are times when the urgency to write down a string of thoughts is as painful as waiting far too long to pee, and you better find a solution in a few minutes, or someone’s going to be wet and warm.
So kind of a weird, weird way to put it, but. I, I totally get it. ’cause there are times when I hear something, I gotta get that down. It’s gonna be a great post. I need to unpack that. It sounds like that thing Joshua said the other day, but I, I, ah, it’s killing me. I gotta figure this out. So I’m in the car, I gotta, you know, yell a note to my assistant, you know, my Google assistant or do something there.
But yeah, that, the urgency just struck me as like a weird way he put it with, you know, peeing. But I thought it was pretty accurate.
Joshua: Well, you
Mickey: You, you ever,
Joshua: well, I don’t know if I have the exact urge, but from a standpoint, from a standpoint of the expertise. Concept that this whole book’s about,
Mickey: Yeah.
Joshua: that kind of desire for the topic is important. I mean, we all have lots of things. We’re interested, we all have various parts of our lives that we have, [00:20:00] passion for. Uh, I’m, I’m a hockey player, a hockey coach with my kids. I mean, I love
Mickey: Mm-Hmm.
Joshua: it all day long. Um, uh, but I’m, but that’s my side thing, right? I mean, that’s just for exercise basically, and some, and some challenge in my life. When we’re talking about our businesses, it’s the same way. We have many, many different things we could be spending our time on and getting so dialed in on that one thing, the connecting the dots to that, finding that pattern, finding the ways to move forward in that.
And then as we talked about earlier, evolve, evolve around that and see where that leads us, that kind of passion’s. What makes you an expert in what makes it possible to build a business like this? So I love technology. I love working within businesses in process and such, and that’s why I do business technology. Stuff. And I’ve always done that in the other iterations of what I’ve done in some capacity. And you have your expertise that, that, you know, and you have your passions that things that you’re writing about and such. So
Mickey: Yep.
Joshua: this really comes down to, is you have to have that passion and think that’s what that quote, you know, goofy quote, uh, emphasizes.
And it’s, it’s a great way to kind of wrap us up because that’s what this is about. You have to have [00:21:00] that passion, you have to have that, uh, thing that seems so easy for you to do because, because you love it so much.
Mickey: because you have it. Yeah. The passion seems obvious once you have it, but, yeah. Well, well said that, that is a good way to kind of wrap things up here. Uh, people wanna find out more about you. How can they track you down?
Joshua: Yeah, so best place would just be McNary marketing.com, you’ll find about what I do. I’ve got some, uh, freebies on there, some, uh, an ai, uh, worksheet, opportunity worksheet, and, uh, some
Mickey: Oh, nice.
Joshua: So I might wanna check those out when you’re over there.
Mickey: Cool. Yeah, and I’ll put a link to that in the show notes along with the, uh, two graphics we talked about, the, the two rooms, the strategy and execution room, as well as the, um, broad context and deep expertise T-shaped thing, just so you can see what that’s about. They’re both in the book though, and certainly the context of the book around them is, is highly recommended.
This is. Again, a fantastic book you should check out for yourself, but we’ll throw those in there, give you a little more tease to encourage you to go, go read the whole thing yourself.
Joshua: even if you aren’t looking to like make a huge business shift to bus business of expertise. I mean, I think you could gain a lot from this book for whatever you’re [00:22:00] doing in your sales and all these kind of things. So don’t, don’t shy away, even though if you’re not just trying to do what, what I’m doing or whatnot.
Mickey: He, he, he over names his books, I think at times. His, his latest one was called, um, had a horrible name. Um. I’m pulling up here the secret trade craft of elite advisors. I’m like, what are you doing? But it was a good book. It was a great book, but the business of expertise at least makes more sense for, for the average Joe.
So yeah, certainly check it out. And yeah. Joshua, thanks again for joining me. I’ll talk to you soon.
Joshua: thanks for having me.
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