In this episode, Ike Reighard and I dig into John C. Maxwell’s “The 5 Levels of Leadership“.
You can listen to the episode here:
You can find Ike on Twitter/X at @IkeReighard, or visit PiedmontChurch.tv or MustMinistries.org.
Full Transcript:
Mickey: John C. Maxwell’s The Five Levels of Leadership is a well regarded framework that outlines the progression of leadership capabilities and influence. It’s a fascinating book and here with me to discuss is Ike Reighard, who’s a certified trainer for the Five Levels Leadership with John Maxwell and someone I’ve known for many years and I’m excited to have on the show today.
So Ike, welcome.
Ike: Well, thank you, Mickey. I’m excited to be a part of your broadcast today.
Mickey: Yeah, cool. Thank you. Um, tell the folks a bit about yourself and who you are.
Ike: I’ve been around for quite a while. Love leadership. Uh, leadership to me is one of the most fun aspects of my life. Uh, helping to train leaders.
I’ve been in the ministry sector for over 50 years and, uh, have the opportunity to be the president and CEO of a nonprofit organization called It’s called Must Ministries, which will serve over 75, 000 unique individuals this year that are battling [00:01:00] poverty in their lives. So those are the areas that I work in, and going out and sharing on leadership is something that I love to do.
Mickey: Awesome. For any of you that are in the Marietta, Kennesaw area, I’m sure you know what Must Ministries is and I’m sure you probably know who Dr. Ike is as well. So this will be a fantastic little discussion. So. I figure there’s five levels of leadership. So let’s talk about the five levels, you know, level one is position.
I’ve heard it said, it’s a great place to start, but you wouldn’t want to live there. So
Ike: yeah,
Mickey: tell us about level one and what that looks like.
Ike: one is, uh, uh, when you just say position, it’s like having a title. Uh, it’s about rights. And people follow you because they have to. You know, you have the title of boss or you have the title of manager. And so people are going to follow you just simply because of the position that you’re in. And for me, leadership, uh, and the word leading is a verb. It’s something that’s active. It’s not a noun. It’s something that you’re doing all the time. And we all lead in different [00:02:00] sectors of our life, but the lowest level is just simply because you have the position. Yep.
Mickey: And it sounds like that can be an issue sometimes too. There was a quote in the book, I think from Abraham Lincoln there that said,
Ike: Nearly
Mickey: all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power. So someone just gets that position and it can be troublesome.
Ike: it can go to your head.
And, uh, when it goes to your head, it’s felt throughout the organization. And so it’s really important that, uh, you combine something else with it called humility. Uh, if you can be a strong leader and you can also have that sense of humility, you’re what Jim Collins calls in the book, Good to Great, a level five leader, which combines fierce determination along with, uh, great humility.
Those are very odd to think of together. They’re an unusual companion and that’s why Jim Collins says there’s so few level five leaders. Yep.
Mickey: Very cool. So step two is, or level two is [00:03:00] permission.
Ike: The
Mickey: note I have here says, leaders at this level focus on building relationships and gaining trust. So tell me more about this.
Ike: want to. Uh, you know, you’re the type of person they go, well, yeah, I like working, uh, for this person or working alongside this person. And so there’s a synergy there because you, you are building relationships. And so you’ve moved beyond just the fact that you CEO or whatever that title might be manager. And now you’ve moved into I’m building a relationship with this person.
And as I build a relationship, I’m building the single greatest factor, I think that you have to have, if you’re going to build a great team. And that’s, you got to build trust. You got to have trust in a marriage. When you’re building your team as a family, is essential. And especially for organizations, Mickey, that are trying to change because your level of trust. Trust determines your [00:04:00] speed of change. The lower
Mickey: Oh, I like that.
Ike: the longer it takes you to get things done. The higher the level of trust, the faster you can be more nimble and flexible and get things accomplished. So trust is a big part of beginning that permission, uh, you know, position. Gotcha.
Mickey: And I see that probably both ways, too. It’s them trusting you as a leader, but you learning to trust your team.
Ike: I
Mickey: see the best value I have is in trusting my team, knowing if I send Ashley an email with something to do, I don’t have to follow up on it or set a reminder, like, I know it’s going to get done.
And so I think it probably goes both ways. Is that sort of this level where it starts building the symbiotic trust?
Ike: You’re exactly right. And, uh, you know, one of the great principles in life is I don’t care how much energy you have. I don’t care how much passion you possess. At some point you will max out as an individual and then your success or failure is going to be predicated on the people that you have the closest to you. And that’s why, you know, it [00:05:00] may start with a position as far as that hierarchy is concerned. Uh, but then when you move into permission, people are following you because they want to. Uh, they genuinely sense that there’s, you know, that there’s something worthwhile in linking up with this person and accomplishing your dreams and your hopes together.
Mickey: Awesome. Well said. Uh, level three is production. Leaders here focus on achieving results and productivity. And I pulled a ton of
Ike: great
Mickey: quotes from it. The book had so many good quotes from people we’ve heard of. I’m not going to say all of them, um, but I love the one from John Wooden, famous basketball coach who said, everyone who scores a basket has 10 hands.
Ike: Meaning
Mickey: you score a basket, it’s because the other four guys around you and you work as a team to get it done.
Ike: Exactly right. So on the production level, you know, it’s all about results. On the position level, it’s about your rights. On the permission level, it’s about, you know, relationships that you’re establishing. And then when you move into this level, there’s something unique about it. And the way that I would phrase it [00:06:00] is people follow you because of what you’ve done for the entire organization. know, they’re, they’re looking, uh, we call it today in our vernacular, the body of work, right? And so they look at the body of work of what you’re doing in the organization.
And this is really important at this level because now you’re, you’re building that team synergy. And people are seeing how they fit together. Uh, there’s the um, story that’s told of when John F. Kennedy, uh, made the declaration in his inauguration speech, uh, that, uh, in the 1960s, that the United States would put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. Uh, that, uh, the technology wasn’t there, the ability wasn’t there, but he tossed out this great vision, And so he goes down to uh, Cape Canaveral at the time, later to be renamed Cape Kennedy, and uh, he was talking to everyone because they knew that it was going to take a very high level [00:07:00] of production to accomplish this, and there was a gentleman standing over the side, kind of had on a white jumpsuit, and he was leaning on a broom, and it was obvious that he was a custodian there in the building, but John Kennedy, being John Kennedy, walked over and said, So tell me, What do you do here?
And he said, um, I’m helping to put a man on the moon. when you can have everybody from the custodian up to those brilliant scientists in the military and everybody else that it takes that they see their place in it. That’s how you get production. It begins to make a difference. And when you work together as a team, there is a synergy, uh, where, you know, putting together that team, the excitement and everything that happens there is really great.
So it’s all about results for the organization there. Gotcha.
Mickey: Yeah. There’s a Peter Drucker quote in this chapter too, it says, there are two types of people in the business community. Those who produce results and those who give you reasons [00:08:00] why they didn’t. So yeah, I think that fits in real well to what you were just saying there too. So
Ike: of american management was a very wise man.
Mickey: yes, he was. So moving on up to level four is people development, helping develop others into leaders.
Ike: That’s all about reproduction And the difference between production, when we’re talking about results, people are following you because of what you’ve done for the organization. But in the people development phase, people are following you because of what you’ve done for them. Now it becomes very personal at this stage. Uh, I have found, uh, you know, Mickey, I’ve been Been blessed. I worked for an organization where I was the chief people officer
Mickey: Mhm.
Ike: we had 1600 people working for us, you know, throughout the southeastern United States. And as the chief people officer, my job was to create an organization that was one of the 100 best places to work in America. And so we learned how to put [00:09:00] that team together. And the biggest thing was, how do we develop those people? Uh, the holy grail in the HR world is, you want to source great people. You’re looking for really great people out there, and you’re trying to find the right people to bring into your organization. Then your next step is, how do I get them engaged? How do I get people just really hooked in, and, and they have a passion about the organization. And then your next stage is I’ve got to retain those people. And I’ve found that people do not quit companies. People quit managers.
Mickey: Yup.
Ike: far and away, it’s well, you know, the person that was really in control of my future, I could never get any face time with them.
I could never find out how can I move up in the organization? How, how can I add more value in the organization? So, that people development level right there, Uh, people are buying into you because they’re looking, you’ve got a [00:10:00] track record, you’ve built the trust, and they’re looking at their own life, and they’re going, okay, things are getting better for me because of this person and, uh, what they’re doing for me in my life.
Mickey: Gotcha. Very well said. I want to jump into level five now too because I disagree with part of it. I want to hear your thoughts on this. So five is the pinnacle.
Ike: and
Mickey: one thing they say in the book is the highest leadership accomplishment is developing other leaders to level four.
Ike: so
Mickey: so I think of folks like Nick Saban, you know, coaches that have brought up other coaches.
I felt like they’ve all reached his level though too. Like he’s done so well. He’s got them to that level. Whereas this is saying, if you get them to four, that’s good enough. So what are your thoughts on, um,
Ike: Leading
Mickey: others to become fours versus seeing them bloom into fives as well. And really what is a five to, you know?
Ike: the 5 is more about respect. You know, they call it the pinnacle, uh, in the book. And this is where people follow you because of who you are and what you represent. Uh, this is when you attract what I call A level players, [00:11:00] uh, into your organization. Because people have heard what goes on within an organization. I always tell people, whatever goes on in the back room, uh, shows up in the showroom. And people hear about an organization. Uh, I’ll give you the perfect example. I just mentioned, you know, that I was fortunate enough to be the chief people officer for a company that was on Fortune Magazine’s list of the 100 best places to work in America for five years in a row. Because of that we developed a reputation and every year when fortune magazine would put out Uh that issue it comes out in late january We would average about 1200 people a month applying for a job over the next
Mickey: Wow.
Ike: It was it was absolutely incredible. And here’s what people knew People didn’t get on that list Unless that company was a really great place to work for because if you ask people well You What makes a [00:12:00] company a great place to work if the people who work there say it is?
Mickey: Yep.
Ike: it, it, it changes everything in your recruiting because you’ve got people within the organization that are wanting family members and friends to come there and work because they see, you know, that it is truly a great place. So, I think organizations can hit that. You know, pinnacles,
Mickey: Hmm.
Ike: well, uh, because people, you know, want to be a part of that brand, they want to be associated with something that gives them a sense of pride. Uh, and the one thing about these levels, and you mentioned getting the level for it is tough. And one of the things that leaders have to remember is that when you achieve a new level, you never leave the old level behind. This
Mickey: Oh, well said.
Ike: This is this is stacking as you’re moving up. And here’s the other part that gets really tough going to be on different levels with every relationship [00:13:00] people are going to respond accordingly You know, I’ve just had a couple of new teammates who joined me on my must side of the world And they’re joining at a very high level because I’ve had uh, several key people that have retired And um as much as I kept begging them, uh,
Mickey: I bet.
Ike: you know They were finally at that point and we’re at a station in life where they didn’t have to work anymore And so i’ve lost some key people around my table And i’m going to be at a different level with them than other people around that table in my room because some of them have Been with me more than 10 years when you’ve been with someone 10 years and you work with them day in and day out, uh, you know what they’re about. Uh, there, there’s a trust level that’s built if you’ve kept your word and you’ve done the right things. And, and that’s why, you know, you’re on different levels with, with every relationship that you have. And your people are going to respond [00:14:00] accordingly. Now for me, uh, this is just me, I think the higher the level, the easier it is to lead.
Mickey: Hmm.
Ike: I just, you know, I’ve just found that that seems to be, you know, the thing that works for me. And perhaps that’s because, you know, the higher the level that you achieve, uh, the more, uh, personal resources you have of time and energy. As you’re building a team around you, as you’re getting great people around you.
So, you know, going up the levels, it occurs slowly. It takes time. Unfortunately, you can come down the ladder real quick
Mickey: Yeah, I bet.
Ike: You know, a reputation is much easier kept than it ever is regained.
Mickey: Gotcha. Yeah. Like I’ve never really heard of level five being applied to a business
Ike: as
Mickey: a whole as well. But I would say
Ike: From
Mickey: the outside, looking in here in Cobb County, most ministries is a level five because people respect what y’all do. They love your mission. They love how well you run everything. So yeah, I think that is a good [00:15:00] example of a level five business
Ike: that’s
Mickey: or company.
Ike: say that, uh, today, uh, at a place called Jim R Miller Park, they’re doing the best of Cobb. And, uh, for six years in a row, they’ve had a category, uh, for the Marietta Daily Journal of, you know, what’s the best nonprofit. And we’ve been fortunate to be voted, uh, every year as the best nonprofit. And there are some terrific
Mickey: Right. There’s, there’s big competition. There are amazing organizations around here.
Ike: There’s places that I just love like the Tommy Nobis Center,
Mickey: Yep.
Ike: with, uh, people with special needs and you’ve got Cobb Family Resources and Live Safe. I mean, I could just go on and on with great organizations. Sweetwater Mission that feeds so many people. And so for us to be chosen by people who live in our community. That’s a brand. So yesterday, um, I was meeting one of those new staff members who’ve just come to us, uh, [00:16:00] has lived in Cobb, worked for the Chamber of Commerce for 12 years.
Mickey: Oh, wow.
Ike: uh, she was telling me, she said, um, you know, I always aspired to work for MUST. And I, and I asked her, I said, tell me why. Uh, because you always want to know when you’re bringing someone new into the organization, you know, Mickey, I have this fundamental belief, uh, time in an organization erodes your awareness of your organization.
Mickey: That’s fair. Yep.
Ike: it’s always good when somebody new is coming in to say, okay, what are we missing? And you know, uh, what, what do you see? And she was very kind and shared some of the things that wouldn’t want That we wouldn’t want to be known for. And so, you know, finding out from people like that makes a difference, but that reputation can help you to, to gain, uh, people and that’s just called influence.
And that goes back to John Maxwell when he said, leadership is influence. It’s nothing more and it’s [00:17:00] nothing less. It’s just about influence in people’s lives. Awesome.
Mickey: Now we kind of breeze past the idea of when you go from level one to level two, when you move up from level two to level three, it’s not just going to happen. You’re not just strolling along and going up the levels. What, what kind of thoughts do you have on how people can work their way toward higher levels of leadership?
Ike: Well, you can’t grow a leader in a day, but you grow a leader daily. It’s the daily things that you do, you know. So, uh, going up the levels is slow. Dropping down as I said can happen quickly and the higher the level achieved the higher the returns on your leadership Uh, there’s just things that happen So when if you’re going to move up then obviously you’re going to have to grow a great friend of mine that lives in our community as a consultant and an author is named Ira Blumenthal and he was the first person to say to me that Ciao Real power is [00:18:00] never in the hands of the learned. It’s in the hands of the learning. That you’re
Mickey: Hmm.
Ike: something new every day. That you’re getting better with your emotional intelligence. And you’re making sure that you’re doing the right things. And I don’t think you should ever look at this and go, Well, I’m going to deliberately climb the levels, uh, you know, uh, So that can get to a certain point. It’s more about you, you begin to climb those stages by realizing you can’t do it by yourself. If you’re, you can’t climb the stages of leadership by yourself. Your interaction with those on your team, your followers, is where it’s going to happen. So, very important that, you know, that we remember those things and, and how you’re perceived within that organization makes all the difference in the world.
Mickey: Yep, for sure.
Ike: So
Mickey: yeah, so five level, five levels of leadership, which I can’t seem to say, John Maxwell, we’ve talked for [00:19:00] 20 minutes here and we’ve probably covered what, 1 percent of what we, what we need to get into. So I encourage y’all to check out that book and then level five leadership is a different book but kind of covers some of the same concepts, you know, about what it’s like to lead at that level.
Um, yeah. So I’d encourage you to check it out. Um, Ike, how can people find you and connect with you and see your organizations and yeah, find you online?
Ike: Find me on, uh, Twitter. That’s a
Mickey: Okay.
Ike: It’s Ike, uh, Reichard at Twitter or at X now.
Mickey: Yeah.
Ike: uh, that’s a great way to be able to do it. Instagram, same way. I, I stay a lot more on Twitter than I really do Instagram because it is better to hear me and not see me. Uh, so I’m thankful this is a podcast and Mickey, let me just say, you know, I’ve known you for a long time. You are certainly one of those top shelf leaders and, uh, in choosing you and your organization, uh, to do the website, you’ve done it for me and a church side of my world.
Mickey: Yep.
Ike: now you’re doing it for us on our must side of the world. a lot of people out there that [00:20:00] offer a lot of the things that your organization does, but they don’t have you at the helm and, uh, the great team that you’ve assembled around you and being able to sit in our boardroom and to interact with your team and to make that choice, uh, says an awful lot about you.
So what you’re talking about today, uh, is something that you practice, sir. And so
Mickey: I appreciate that.
Ike: it and love your family and appreciate them as well.
Mickey: Cool. Yeah, I appreciate you and all you bring to the community and all your different roles and
Ike: yeah,
Mickey: I’ll put links to those places in the show notes so people can find you and I always appreciate your time.
Ike: Hey, you’re welcome. And if you live in this area, come visit us at Piedmont Church. We’re better than Chick fil A. We’re open on Sundays.
Mickey: There you go. Perfect. Thanks. See ya.
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