In this episode, Moira Vetter and I dug into Sun Tzu’s “The Art of War“.
You can listen to the episode here:
You can find Moira’s agency here, or find her on LinkedIn here.
Full Transcript:
Mickey: Know when to fight and when not to fight. Avoid what is strong and strike what is weak. Know how to deceive the enemy. Appear weak when you are strong and strong when you are weak. Know your strengths and weaknesses. If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the result of 100 battles. That’s it. A bit from the art of war by Sun Tzu and today to discuss with me is Moira Vetter. Moira, welcome to the show.
Moira: Thank you so much. Good to be with you this morning.
Mickey: Tell folks a little bit. About yourself.
Moira: Yeah. So I am the founder and CEO of ModoModo Agency and we are a full service B2B agency here in Atlanta, GA and I’ve been in the agency game of 30 years or more. I’m just going to start saying or more and. It’s been a great ride and have worked with a lot of complex businesses. Do a lot of strategy work and that’s where my love for the art of war comes into play.
Mickey: Gotcha. I’m anxious to hear more about that cause. Yeah, this is. The one you picked, you don’t strike me as an art of war kind of person. You’re always pleasant and nice. And I kind of see the opposite there of the the get them and, you know, hit him where it hurts. Kind of stuff that our ward talks about. But you picked this book. So yeah. Why don’t you leave off and kind of tell us why you chose this and why you? Why your copy of it is so tattered from you going through it so often, Sir.
Moira: Yes, you know, I think I think the the hidden wisdom that nobody takes away or maybe that people don’t assume is there because of the time. Is that you know the the the greatest. Battles never have to be fought right that the people understand the the battlefield or the the situations they find themselves in. You know, I first fell in love with the art of war because of the title, and I am one of these people. I do judge a book by its cover. By its title and I do not read a whole lot of books because I don’t like the title and the cover. But what I love about. The art of war is it takes 2. Very passionate, very powerful words that you don’t expect to see together and puts them together. The whole idea of war, which is a horrifying thing, a strategy thing, seemingly impossible to eradicate thing and and bringing it together. Of a phrase like art is just. You know and. Maybe this is the interpreters. Maybe this is the the translators over the year but years. That that’s one of the things that fascinates me about the book was, you know, of course we were preparing. And as you said, my, my copies, all my copy has been through water and it is wrinkled and it has every kind of note and highlighting and stuff in here. Yeah. You know the the one of the. Things that I took aside and there are a lot of translations of sun sues treatises. They are very brief, they’re very short, which is one of the things I love. They don’t they don’t have to be long to be good, but in my particular translation. That I have here it says that the art of war was written around 500 BC and it’s the oldest military treatise in the world. 25 centuries later, you know there’s so. Much that is. Still relevant in it, and I think that’s one of the things that I love. I am a big fan of Evergreen things. There’s so much about humanity that is ever present, and there’s a lot of people that want to read the latest, greatest book on a trend. From the last month that just came out and I like to read the books from 25 centuries ago that are still true because there’s just so much wisdom in some of those.
Mickey: Gotcha. Well said. Yeah. Yeah. The one of the latest books I read is Gary Vaynerchuk’s new one, which is very much today’s trends. Like, exactly. Yeah. It’s not gonna age very well. Whereas. Yeah, this book, clearly 25 centuries later, is still aged quite well. So, yeah. Fantastic. So yeah, a lot of this again. It’s talking about war, but there’s ways to apply it to business. What are some of the lessons you’ve taken out to?
Moira: Yep. Yep, Yep. Use from the books for ModoModo. It’s been my life, you know, but one thing I’ll say, anyone that is a strategic person should have read this book. If they have not. Most literature programs most business programs, including the most strategic, in addition to military strategy programs, always have this war. Have this war have this book as a key you know component because it is so simple. It is and one thing I’ll say is. There, there’s kind of an elegance about these foundational ideas that all the rest doesn’t matter if you don’t have some of these foundational principles in place, and I think that’s the thing I would take away. That. I would say we’ve applied in the business, you know, some of the things that you read out in the very beginning. You know, you must know yourself and you must know the enemy and and you know, let’s define the enemy, the enemy. Is the challenge that you are up against? It could be the economy, it could be a global pandemic, it could be a competitor. Sometimes the enemy is you right. Sometimes the enemy is yourself. You’re you’re failing to move forward and to take on change. And so, you know, if nobody even reads the book. The idea of being prepared and honest with yourself about your strengths and weaknesses, and the same with the people that you engage and encounter. Which is something that’s many people never ever do in their whole life. They’re never honest with themselves about who they are and what they’re good at and what they’re not. And the people they surround themselves with, right, what they’re good at and what they’re not. So you know, that is like the most basic principle, and that’s why that’s Evergreen, because it doesn’t matter. What time you’re. It doesn’t matter whether you have any wealth or every every tool and toy in the world. If you’re not true about what you know, what you are and who you’ve surrounded yourself with, you know what you going to do.
Mickey: Well. If that’s something, yeah. You don’t see a lot of, but you hinted at it a little bit in the book, where it’s knowing yourself and knowing the people around you, but knowing your opponent as well. Charlie Monk talks about a lot about that. You know, Warren Buffett’s late business partner. He said it’s bad to have an opinion you’re proud of. If you can’t state the arguments for the other side better than your opponents can.
Moira: Yes. Yep. Exactly.
Mickey: That’s something to to know too. And again, that gets back into the war and opponents and fighting kind of thing, which I didn’t take a lot of that from the book. I took more of the how to treat your team and don’t give up and keep the element of surprise and I guess some of that ties into war, but I see at.
Moira: Yeah.
Mickey: Least a lack of war, maybe your level there is but.
Moira: Yeah. Yeah. No, I. Think the lack of war is important, but there is a ton there. There is stuff in here suddenly about the enemy. But. I OK, I think this is true. OK, so you’re like how you know, how do you apply it to business? And now I got it. Now I’ve got to flip through and find this section. So there’s a section in here that talks about. These foundational ideas and that you have to be thinking on multiple levels and and and it’s in the first chapter, which is laying plans which with laying plans is really actually let’s do this for anybody reading. So the this the book is sectioned out. In these key ideas, laying plans, waging war, attack by stratagem, tactical dispositions, use of energy, weak points, and strong maneuvering, an army variation of tactics, the army on the March classification of terrain. Which is fascinating to me. Attack by fire, use of spies. And so, you know, the book kind of talks through in each of these areas of observation and awareness, because that’s what the book is about. It is about observation and awareness and the right way to act to affect an outcome and the right way to act. To affect a victorious outcome right and victory doesn’t necessarily mean fighting. It can also mean you know, having everyone avoid fighting. But there, but there is a section in here that is about the foundational things that you have to be aware of. There’s what they call moral law, which is sort of rules to live by heaven, which is the time that you’re in the seasons, the things that surround you, Earth which is. The things on the ground around you, you know, it could be your office. It could be your tools. It’s the, it’s the tangibles. The commander, which is the general, it is the leadership right leadership is so key and that’s why this book is read by business people because all of the things in here on the generals and the commanders and the lieutenants is about the the idea of leadership and then there’s method and discipline and. The reason that I think the book is not about how to take down the opponent is because taking down the opponent is 20% about them and 80% about you. Your preparation, your understanding, your understanding of yourself, your understanding of your limits, the the time you’re in. So it is not. A book about the competition and that’s why, you know, when I think about, you know, and we we’re in similar, you know some would say we’re competitors of each other but you know we’re in a similar area of marketing web development. I start my building and planning not by always looking at who are the top five competitors. What are they doing and what should I doing it? What should we be doing? It’s it always starts from the inside. What are our strengths? What do people need? What is the team able to do? What are the best things now? What are our now? What are our competitive threats and that’s that’s I think part of the genius of the book too, because I think too many people spend all their time looking outside and none of the time looking inside.
Mickey: Yeah. The whole classification of terrain stuff is is indeed fascinating. All the different different levels there.
Moira: Hmm.
Mickey: Yeah, few few things I found one. Have you ever read much from Annie Duke?
Moira: No.
Mickey: OK, here’s a book called quit about knowing when to quit and how you know she she’s a former poker player like World Championship Poker player, she said. You know, the experts quit more quickly, you know, than if you look at amateurs versus professional poker player quit way quicker. This book kind of pushes the opposite, though to say things like an army that is an army that comes back is one that has burned his boats and bridges to make.
Moira: Ohh yes.
Mickey: Passed its will. It’s an interesting I don’t say contradiction, but just knowing when you should burn the boats versus when you should leave them there so you make a hasty retreat leads to interesting things with what we do too.
Moira: Yes. Yes, I do. I do absolutely love that section. I’m so glad you pulled that out. You know I. I think some people you know when you talk about founders, especially if you talk about founders and you know if you read Ink magazine or you listen to these interviews of people that are growing companies, they will talk about. I am all in. Right. Anytime you listen to the pot there, I. Think there’s a podcast called All in there? There’s a lot of. Talking, which is. It is not that failure was unlikely. I ensured that failure was impossible because the only outcome I was allowing for was success, right, come hell or high water. We are we are going to win and that is absolutely a mentality and and there is a section in the book. Where it talks about. Getting your army where you need to go and then burning the bridges and burning the boats so there is no means of of retreat. You know we we will be victorious here because there is no way there is no other way. And I do think that’s interesting. I think I have definitely seen. Entrepreneurs and, you know, particularly seed round companies where you have this small and. Actual team, you’ve just gotten funding and everybody is true believers, right? And that that’s absolutely burn the boats. I think a place that you should not burn the boats and not burn the bridges. There are a lot of mid market companies. You are. They’re not really sure you know when they’re sometimes they’re between categories, you know, maybe there’s been an acquisition or a divestiture of a division and they’re still trying to figure out their leadership. That’s not a good time to burn the bridges and the boats because you may need to, you know, fall back, right, fall back, reconsider, go to the side. So I also think there is something to be said about. Really thinking about when you do one or the other, you know and and you know I love that you brought up that about. The poker players. I so I’m going to I’m going to jump to another book for a minute. Have you ever read, think and grow rich by Napoleon Hill?
Mickey: Long time ago, yeah.
Moira: One of the things about. Napoleon Hills Book and and maybe the Bible and some other books you could talk to people and one person could say, well, they said to take Rd. A and another person reads the book and they hear that it said to take Road B, right. And you can take away from. It. Whatever, whatever you need it. To take away from the book, but it it. Inspired you or? It gave you wisdom and it was interesting. I I think that. Both the idea of get out if you’re not going to win is in the book as well as you know. Not giving up too soon, but here I did this get in and so you you talked about that if you’re. If you’re losing, get. Out in war? Then let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns. Thus, it may be known that the leader of armies is the arbiter of the people’s fate. The man on whom depends whether the nation shall be in peace or peril. There is a lot about striking quickly. And not dragging things out forever. You know, in order to kill the enemy, men must be wells to anger them. There may be advantage from defeating the enemy. They must have their rewards. And I love this idea of no participation trophies. Here. Therefore, in chariot fighting, when 10 or more Chariots have been taken. Those should be rewarded who took the first right? This whole idea of who was willing to be the first in line, the first over the hill, particularly of urgency, is of importance. There’s so many. You know the you know your point about there. There’s the thing about getting out. But there’s the thing about getting in, right. I think that is a the whole notion of time. Right time is definitely something that goes through here. And there are a lot of comments on it in, in, in my version of this. Because again. Someone. After Sun zoo. Took his principles of battle, which were very short, and translated them in different languages, and then over the ages people have done different translations. You know, I think this we certainly see it in things like again. And I’m I’m referencing the Bible it is. Centuries and centuries old, any of these older texts where you’ll have new people that do new translations and they say I’m not sure that’s exactly what they meant. You know, in this section. But there’s a lot of call outs and this whole idea not only of getting it over with right quickly is if you’re not going to win, but to not to let delay in getting in there it which is in Section 2 on waging war. Thus though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been associated with long delays. There is no instance of a country having been benefited from prolonged warfare. This whole idea of. You know, you hear this in business that now I’m going to get the quote wrong. There’s a quote. About. Making decisions what is the quote making decisions? Slowly, but then not coming off of it versus making decisions quickly and changing them continuously, right. I think there’s an aspect. There’s even a quote in here. I wonder what the chances are that I find it here once the war is declared, the great general strikes. Immediately, without waiting until every last detail is taken care of. This may seem audacious device, but all the great strategists from Julius Caesar to Hitler realized that time is of vital importance. Too little, too late, was not one of their mottos. And there is a lot in all of the translations because it is really intended to be a military text where they do comparisons to Napoleon to sees or to, you know, horrific people like Hitler. But you know, these are all people that were. Constantly strategizing movements, conquests, and, you know, I think. I think business is a conquest. It is methodical. You can’t do any of it without the people. I mean, that’s why there’s so much psychology in this book. Because war. Yes, is about your munitions. But without your army, you know without. The people that you are representing, you know you, you. Don’t have you? Don’t have a leadership? You don’t you know. And so it is very psychological. I’ve, you know, you talked about the battered. State of this book. I have read it many times flying across country, you know, and I and I’m always looking the the thing about having a few books that you go back to. And so art of war would be one of mine. Thinking grow rich as one start with why is another.
Mickey: Yep.
Moira: Instead of reading a book a day, I read the same books. Over and over trying to go deeper into the content and trying to find. New aspects of applying subject matter because. When you read a book, you’re in one place and you know books like the Art of war are about long planning, right? The long game. And so the first time, you know, I read this, I was probably in my 20s. I didn’t understand any of it, right, and I probably haven’t had much leadership, so I didn’t, you know, even understand the perils of the decisions, the dangers of going too soon or waiting too long. And and then the second time I read it, I was in my 30s and I had already had a business fail. And, you know. Had had had. More leadership challenges, but also more strict. Pejic challenges. I’ve been through, you know the dot bomb era, the 2008 economic crash, and so the whole idea about all the situational realities that impact what you and your people can do, and you know the battles we find ourselves in. I have lived through more of that, and so all of a sudden you start to. Like different things away from them and and then I read it again in my 40s and we were growing the business and you know, in a prolonged state of craziness with the economy from 2008 to 2012 and some real radical shifts in terms of. Terrain because of, you know, technologies change. You know our businesses when you think about marketing and. Thing, although I’ve been in the business for 30 years, it’s probably been, you know, 10 different industries in the 30 years I’ve been in it because of, you know, and and I’m sure this is true with any industry, you know, technologies impact and also mankinds impact and as a. As a resource or or as a constituency are constantly. You know, evolving and therefore the the businesses that we’re in are evolving. And I have always been someone that was planning that was looking for trends that was looking for the next trend and trying. To figure out. How to keep changing and that’s why something like this really appeals to me. Because there there is no end right, there is no ending to the need. To be thinking and applying and strategizing.
Mickey: When you never all have it all figured out either. I mean, we’re looking down the barrel AI right now.
Moira: No. Yep.
Mickey: So this into. The we should all be quick to jump in and start playing with it and learning it, but also not be afraid to shift back out or shift over or it. Just being nimble. He talks about nimble a good bit, he says. Quote those skilled in military operations are able to change their formations in such a way as to ensure victory based on the actions of opponents.
Moira: Yes.
Mickey: So opponents or just? Yeah, in this case, even just technologies as those things shift, we need to be able to to bounce around. I like the thought on reading fewer books too. That’s something I struggle with, but I read too many. That’s why I have this podcast to force me to go back and reread books I’ve not touched in a while. This is one I hadn’t looked at in quite a while, so it forced me over last couple days to reread it.
Moira: Yep. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Mickey: Look at my notes again and then of course the stuff you’re sharing is fantastic and giving me new angles there too. So it’s. Yeah, I I do like your approach there.
Moira: Yeah, I I have this one section that I pulled out and of course the whole, the whole damn book is highlighted. So it’s, you know, it’s hard. That was I was like, Oh my God, the pressure, right. I’m never. Going to find the parts that. I really do love the parts of the art of war that are about not waging war. You know that, you know that being able to, you know, there’s a a section in here, you know, supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemies resistance without fighting right to win without fighting. You know, is amazing and you know the the thus the highest form of generalship is to bulk the enemies plans. But there’s a section in here in which what section ma’am 3. This is attacked by stratagem. So again, it’s about there are 5 essentials for victory and I I’m just I love 3 rules of this. Five things of that. Seven of whatever. There’s a section in here which are the seven pressing questions. Well, maybe we’ll come back to those, but I love this one. Which is the five essentials for victory. He will win. Who knows when to fight and when not to fight, right? That’s that whole. Picking your battles, right. There’s a whole bunch of people swinging at windmills when there. There’s nothing there. Right? And and and, you know, using all their energy too. He will win. Who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. Right. So you know everybody, you know when you model whether it is on your side or the other side, you know I’ll tell you about that when people build strategies around the perfect definitions of all of the. Like let’s say on our side you. Know sometimes you have a more. In your group of people, right? And you don’t have as much experience and so you have to think about how to assemble them and and prepare them and organize them differently. And the same on the other side. You know, many people have lost in battles because they assumed that inferior forces on the other side. Were not as capable, but they may have been more dedicated or crazy. Right? Let’s think of the American. Revolution, right? I mean. You know people that are bound to win are bound to win and say, you know there, there’s just a whole aspect of that about who are we dealing with again on our side and their side #3. He will win, whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all ranks.
Huge, right? I mean, you know that is. You know, we we hear this all the time, I think especially the last few years, all the talk about quiet quitting, right and people who were in different places in their life, right, people that who do not find themselves aligned with the mission of their organization. And that is totally understandable. It’s almost impossible to have an entire. Their group, but it takes different efforts to get people that are in the beginning of their careers as excited about something, particularly as they haven’t been on a journey before or a like journey. People that are later on in their careers. If they don’t, you know, want to take them out and again. You know, like there’s there’s all the things that it takes to get people there. Number four, he will win who prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. This is so big for me. I mean the I. Have a book. By Peter Drucker on my desk, which is managing oneself, and I don’t say I do it properly all the time, but I think that you know, focusing on yourself and having your own act together, you’re shipped together your trip together. Is so important preparation. You know, whatever. What’s the quote? That a success is 99% preparation or what is it 99?
Mickey: 1 percent perspiration.
Moira: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I think that whole idea. Was. Being prepared, which is something that I’ve worked on a lot with. You know, people newer in their career, I think particularly over the last few years the pandemic was very relaxed. So, so some of the things that some people would describe as preparation might be seen as unnecessary. Formality or old fashioned formality, and I see them as preparation, you know, and so really trying to get people to understand that this is not about jumping through hoops. This is about getting yourself and idea of that would be drawing, doing a rehearsed dry run for a presentation. Right, that is not a busy work or unnecessary work. It’s to get yourself, you know, prepared.
Mickey: Yeah, they say Steve Jobs would do about a 90 to one on his presentation. He was getting an hour long presentation. He practiced it for about 90 hours and and he made it look effortless. That’s how he it was effortless. He wasn’t. He was talented, for sure. Much of it was because he practiced so much. It was just he had it down back.
Moira: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And then the the 5th essential for victory, he will win. Who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign. Right. So there there’s a lot about autonomy, right? Everybody wants autonomy, right? Just give me. My stuff and leave me alone, right. And I and I think that. There is truth to. Getting people that really know what they’re doing, making sure they have what they need and let them do their work right, let them let them go about their business, you know, wage the wage, the war. And if you don’t have military capacity, then interfere. I mean, that’s the, you know, that’s what I’m saying. I think every. One of the quotes in this book has two sides. It’s like first question whether you do have this and then you know what, what do you do if you don’t? One of my favorite quotes and and I think in the beginning you talked about, you know knowing the enemy but. The quote if you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of 100 battles. If you know yourself, but not the enemy, for every victory gained, you will also suffer a defeat. And if you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb and. Every battle, you know that that’s that whole like. And and this is my problem with this book. Every time I read one I’m like that’s the best quote in the book, right? That’s the.
Mickey: Yeah, this is a short book. Like you said, the whole thing. The highlight is all just quotes. Almost. Yeah.
Moira: It it is it. But and and they’re really timeless. I mean, again. And and for those that are peaceful people and to your point, I’m I’m I try not to go through life real. Happy, positive and empowering everybody. But I do so with the understanding that time is not unlimited. Resources are not unlimited and I’m trying to affect change and a result in a win, you know, and people that understand that, that happens through intention. We’ll probably like a lot of this book and I think you can. Take things out. Like you can change the phrase enemy to the other guy, right? And you can take out war to the challenge, right? Or the game. Right, there’s the. There’s a lot. Again, this is a book about psychology. It’s about the psychology of winning and preparing to always win, which I think is a great. Thing to do.
Mickey: Well said. So yeah, we’re about out of time here is one more quote. You reminded me of earlier. I want to kind of end on that about treating your people right to get them to, to follow. And he says, quote, when one treats people with benevolence, justice and righteousness and reposes confidence in them, the army will be united in mind and all will be happy to serve their leaders. So it is getting people on the same page is kind of a a great way to go. So more it’s been been fantastic. How can people find you and learn more about you and what you do?
Moira: 100%. Yes. Well, if you’d like us to apply these wonderful strategies and more to to complex business, you can find us at modomodoagency.com and at ModoModoAgency, on all of the various channels and. You know we we love to talk to mid size and leading businesses, businesses that are very complex. And and that’s why we we got a bunch of strategic thinkers around here always thinking about that.
Mickey: Awesome, that’s fantastic. I’ll put those links in the show notes so people can find you there. Thank you so much for. Your time, I appreciate it. This has been fantastic.
Moira: Absolutely.
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