In this episode, Justin Smith and I dug into “The Ideal Team Player” by Patrick Lencioni.
You can listen to the episode here:
You can find more about Justin at LeaderSmith.co.
Full Transcript:
Mickey Mellen
A person who is not humble will not be able to be vulnerable and build trust, making them unable to engage in honest conflict and hold others accountable. And they’ll have a hard time committing to decisions that don’t serve their interests. A colleague who lacks hunger will not be willing to engage in uncomfortable conflict.
Hold peers accountable for the behaviors or do whatever it takes to achieve results. Choosing instead to take an easier path. And a person who is not smart about people will most likely create unnecessary problems in the entire team building process, especially when it comes to tactfully engaging in productive conflict and holding people accountable for their behaviors. So that was just a little bit from Patrick Lencioni’s book, The Ideal Team Player. And here to discuss it is Justin Smith. So Justin, welcome back.
Justin Smith (00:39.33)
Thank you so much for having me, Mickey.
Mickey Mellen (00:41.14)
Yeah, this will be great. So you chose this book. This is one I’ve read a long time ago but was refreshing on to get ready for this. But why did you pick this one? What led you to go with this book?
Justin Smith (00:50.21)
Yeah, just helping teams as I get to do a lot of their struggles are around identifying what their culture is and how do we assess people? They feel that they know, I mean, they’re just, but they have a hard time identifying and articulating what are those things? We use Patrick Lincione’s book, Ideal Team Player, to just give us a ramp up. I love at the end of the book, getting towards it, he says, hey, ideal team player.
might not be for everybody, Hungry Humble Smart might not be your three, but pick a few, pick whatever it is, and typically most organizations identify with these three and at least use these as a ramping up point, and so that’s why I use it for a lot of conversations.
Mickey Mellen (01:32.524)
Gotcha, and I like that. We’ve been bad about that historically saying we just kind know it when we see it that’s not really helpful. Having a specific framework to do it helps. We use the traction EOS system in our company and they have a thing called GWC which is get it, want it, and the capacity to do it. So get it meaning their brain’s wired to match the demands. They’ll want it if they’re excited, in capacity to do it, they have the skills to do it. And that works, but humble, hungry, and smart that I alluded to in the intro and we’ll dig into a lot here are the three main things he talks about here. And that just hits me a lot easier. It makes a lot more sense somehow in my brain.
Just look for what does each one of those mean? I think I’m gonna be worth some time to kind of unpack, yeah, humble, hungry, and smart, and what that means, and how to identify people that have it, and how they don’t, and what maybe you can do to help people catch that. So let’s kind of dig in there. So humble. Let’s talk about what does it mean for someone to be humble in this kind of capacity.
Justin Smith (02:19.799)
Yeah, Humble is one of those ones that we get some pushback on is what is this? I just have to be a pushover in order to be part of a great team player. And so to frame all of these, when you really read the book, Patrick Lincione gives a fable around this company out in California that is building and trying to identify what are characteristics of their leadership team and how do they assess people on their team.
Mickey Mellen (02:29.612)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Smith (02:48.69)
And they’re really just trying to get the core of that he then goes on to say hey that we think that we’ve landed on these three hungry Humble and smart and it’s not that you need Just one of them to be an ideal team player. It’s that you need kind of this magic three of them and then you’re in this center circle of these three circles with a center point on Becoming an ideal team player. And so one of the first things they do is they talk about humility and humility is
A lot of people think, hey, humility is, hey, you have to just calm down your ego. And Patrick’s like, it’s not exactly that, because you could actually have an under inflated ego and you could just woe is me kind of idea. And it’s like, well, that person has zero ego. And so that’s not what Lencioni is saying. He’s also saying, hey, can’t have, it can’t be all about you. And so you need an appropriate level of ego, almost a…
Not a hyperactive and not an under active ego around How can we be in it for the better of others? How can I receive feedback or do I have an ego about me that I can’t receive feedback? How can I use humility with not insecurity or not? Over security, but how can I just be a humble enough leader to want and receive? What’s best for the team not in it for myself idea which kind of summarizes? humility
Mickey Mellen (04:14.636)
Yeah, I like that. I see it kind of as the kind of person that is wanting to get to the right answer versus being worried about being right. I think there’s kind of, yeah, it’s being humble there just doing that. In the book he drops a quote from C.S. Lewis that says, humility isn’t thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. And so yeah, you don’t have to think you’re worse or anything like that, but just be thinking of other people and accepting ideas and yeah, I love that. It’s a great way to put it there.
Justin Smith (04:22.288)
Yes.
Justin Smith (04:37.861)
Yes. Yes. Fully agree.
Mickey Mellen (04:40.852)
So, second one is hungry. So what does hungry mean? It’s just past lunchtime and I did not eat enough so I am hungry but that’s not, I don’t think what he’s going for here. yeah, says, from the book, it hungry people are always looking for more. So more of what? What are hungry people doing in this case?
Justin Smith (04:48.61)
Who the?
Justin Smith (04:56.475)
Yeah, more hungry hungry people get after it. They typically do more than what’s expected. They typically you don’t have to nudge them along as you have to do to unhungry people. Hungry people want to exceed, want to win, want to achieve, want to do many many things where it goes above and beyond. Hungry people love to gain success.
Hungry people are driven. Hungry people are active. Hungry people, yes, love food, but that’s not the idea of what hungry is here. And I think he kind of nails it on, you know, just a drive for more. Hungry people love to win. And that needs to be an attribute of what it’s like to be a great team player in winning organizations, but you can’t have that by itself.
Mickey Mellen (05:33.738)
You
Mickey Mellen (05:54.42)
Right. You we’ll get into some of that what it looks like if they only have some of these attributes by themselves. I do like one other piece of hungry too, because I look at our team and our team is fantastic, but I don’t think some of them are hungry necessarily. But in reading his description, I think I’m wrong. I think they might be because one thing he said is managers don’t have to push or monitor them because they’re self motivated and conscientious. I’m like, OK, I don’t push or monitor anyone on teams. They get their job done and because they’re self motivated and conscientious. So guess they are hungry. I just I picture hungry is like going for it. And like, I guess that could be it. But it doesn’t have to be that it’s just someone
that gets things done without being pushed, which I love that. Yeah, so that’s where I kinda missed that one. Again, this book did a good job of bringing that out. And then smart, and this is not what it seems like. This is the one that kinda confuses people, I think. They think smart, like cool, they’re college educated and have all the book smarts and all that, which is certainly great to have on your team, but they mean something different here. What is he talking about with smart?
Justin Smith (06:27.007)
Correct. Correct.
Justin Smith (06:44.503)
for sure. think the closest thing is a high EQ. It is people smarts, not just street smarts and, and, you know, tasks smart. This is how, how do you do interacting with others? How do you use those interactions and use your words and not use your words? And when do you say something and timing? It’s a lot on the emotional intelligence spectrum of what smart is. And yes, it’s not.
Mickey Mellen (06:51.788)
Mm-hmm.
Mickey Mellen (07:06.892)
Yeah.
Justin Smith (07:14.397)
IQ, it’s more EQ.
Mickey Mellen (07:16.044)
Yeah, and it’s interesting that IQ doesn’t really come to this at all. mean, humble, hungry, and smart don’t really account for that. I think if you’re hungry enough, you’ll kind of gain some knowledge, and of course, you’re smart with people. think knowledge kind of interweaves through all of them, but it’s not, yeah, you’re smart and think, okay, cool, smart, you need smart people, and that’s, not what it means at all. yeah, one thing he says, they ask questions and listen attentively. Like, that’s, yeah, being, which kind of ties into humble, and again, they all sort of tie to each other a little bit, and again, it’s just, what a good person makes, a good team player makes. So.
Justin Smith (07:36.267)
Yes.
Mickey Mellen (07:44.373)
So there’s some differences we kind of hit on a little bit where people that only have one or two of the virtues. So let’s kind of go through those. So if someone’s only humble, they’re a pawn. One thing I read is that people who are humble without being smart or hungry are of little use to the rest of the team. So what are your thoughts on humble only?
Justin Smith (08:00.012)
Yeah. If you’re humble only, you have little influence to drive performance. it’s more of a E or in the idea of, well, we don’t have to go and do that. Well, we don’t have to clean up, but we don’t have to hit anything head on. And it’s just a, it’s a lackluster, mediocre version of goal achievement. And, and if that’s your only, well, if you only are humble.
I would say that that’s more of the lack of hunger is what I more described. If, if you were just humble, yeah, you’re missing the idea of people’s EQ and achievement. And you can’t just be, you’re a pawn. You are a piece on the chessboard that can do limited movement mobility.
Mickey Mellen (08:29.674)
Yeah.
Mickey Mellen (08:44.661)
Yeah.
Mickey Mellen (08:51.242)
Yeah, okay, I like that. So the next one, so forget that, now we’re with someone that says only hungry, hunger only, which this book calls them a bulldozer. So this is people who are hungry or driven but lack humility and interpersonal skills tend to bulldoze over others in their determination to achieve their own interests. So bulldozers, hunger only.
Justin Smith (09:07.362)
Yes. A bulldozer is one direction. It’s wide open. It’s all out. It’s that idea that you almost had of like, are my people hungry? Well, hungry is not, you know, grabbing it forcefully and exerting your effort onto it. Well, that’s what a bulldozer does. And they get their way with without any regard towards organizational goals or, or people in the wake or, you know, we could go customers or
Mickey Mellen (09:25.344)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Smith (09:35.799)
hospitality or any of those things. Yeah. Bulldozer pushes.
Mickey Mellen (09:35.936)
Right.
Gotcha. The third one I think is maybe the most dangerous and I’m curious your thought on that because it seems like they could slip through easier if they’re only smart. And again, this is people smart like a charmer. those are people who have skills but lack humility and drive. They’re personable but lack true interest in helping colleagues or the teams. They’ll come across as a charmer and seem like they’re great but they’re lacking being humble and being hungry and yeah, what does that lead to?
Justin Smith (10:01.657)
Yeah, it’s no real contribution to the team. They’re smart and they can point flaws into every single thing that you see. They might know how to deal well with people, but they’re not achieving results hungry and they’re not doing in a way that is very humble. They pride themselves, they walk around with their nose up in the air and they’re just a smart person. Mickey, in light of those
categories when somebody just says one is glaringly obvious. And those are the people that Patrick Lincione in the organization life says, Hey, it’s hard to fix. If you had just one of these three, that’s hard to fix and change around. And we all move on the spectrum at different times and different seasons. We’re doing things, but he’s like, Hey, you definitely want people more or less in the three of three. But two of three is, you know,
Mickey Mellen (10:35.5)
Mm-hmm.
Mickey Mellen (10:49.398)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Smith (10:59.272)
more realistic about where people would fit or fall most of the time. And so I do think that when, as we dive into those two of three spectrums, I think that’s where people will lean in and go, that, might be where somebody on my team is, or that might be where I am. And how do I overcome that? How do I achieve, you know, out of those two or three, and how do I get to become an ideal team player?
Mickey Mellen (11:23.562)
Gotcha, cool. So let’s hit those two out of three and then I want to hear more of your thoughts on how they can help fill in some of the gaps. So the first one would be if you’re humble and hungry but not smart, you’re an inadvertent troublemaker, hardworking but clueless about how their words and actions come across, colleagues get tired of cleaning up the problems they create.
Justin Smith (11:39.899)
Yes. Patrick Wienzienk mentions that this is like the golden retriever. This is not in the book, but just here in him. He says it’s the golden retriever and the golden retriever, everybody loves the golden retriever. They are humble. The golden retriever comes to you wagging its tail. It loves you hungry. They are willing to work and work hard. Hey, golden retriever, I need you to walk across the room. And their tail knocks over the cup of water.
Mickey Mellen (11:50.325)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Smith (12:05.662)
and they’re an accidental mess maker and the golden retriever in a true Kind of accidental mess maker form will come back to you. I am so sorry Let me clean it up. Let me do anything and the next time they walk across the room. They make the same mistake They just don’t have the wherewithal around what they’re doing is causing accidents and mistakes whether it’s the way they’re responding to emails whether it’s the tone in which they do but they’re
Their ego is, is solid. mean, you just, you care for this person because I am so sorry. I I will look out next time I walk across the room, I’ll never do that again. And man, they get results cause they’re working hard and it’s not that they’re a slacker. They’re actually really hard working. And I just love his idea of everybody can picture a gold retriever and it’s long tail making mistakes, which is so good.
Mickey Mellen (12:52.698)
I love that, yeah.
Well, let’s unpack that one a bit more. Let’s dig in here a little bit. So how would you solve that then? Because if they’re humble and they’re saying, I made the mistake, I want to fix it, but clearly they’re not, what can you do for yourself or for your teammate that is lacking that smart piece? How can they fix that?
Justin Smith (12:59.336)
Yes.
Justin Smith (13:09.737)
Yeah, I loved in the book, Patrick says that we have to hold people to standards and it has to be very timely. And so it’s when they make the wrong email that they’re doing it. No, and it’s a one word response email. Hey, that comes across, hey, your facial expressions in the meetings comes across. And if somebody truly is just not smart, you should be able to help teach them EQ.
There’s tons of books around there on developing EQ. I know that you have stuff and content on it, but they’re humble enough to listen and they’re hungry enough to like put forth the work and the effort to try to get better. That is a, that’s a great scenario for you to have as somebody that’s, you know, this accidental mess maker, cause they, they are not going to defend that they’re making mistakes. They’re, humble enough. I am so sorry. How can I, how can I fix this? And they’re willing to put in the work. And so we love.
Mickey Mellen (13:39.67)
Yep.
Mickey Mellen (14:01.484)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Smith (14:06.815)
Working with accidental messmakers because because they recognize yeah, I have some room for improvement and I want to get better How do you get them to do that over and over and over? That is it has to be timely and has to be direct Yeah
Mickey Mellen (14:22.208)
Gotcha, I like that. Cool, so the next one, someone is humble and they’re smart but not hungry. So this is what he calls a lovable slacker, is one thing I saw for it. These people get along well with others, because they’re smart and they’re humble, but they only do enough work to get by.
Justin Smith (14:36.597)
Yeah. If you think of the smart as EQ, and you’ll see this in the third one as well, they’re great with people and they’re great with the right people. And so they will project, hey, I’m going to go do this one small project and then I’m going to hang out in the conference room or I’m going to hang out in the hallways and I’m going to walk by everybody and kind of
show how good I am as I’m not doing anything and accomplish anything. And it’s not because out of a, at a overactive ego, it’s actually because I’m humble and people go, man, that person highly likable, smart and humble with an ego that’s so good. Hey, what are you working on next? I’m just waiting. I’m waiting for the next chance for somebody to give me. you’re like, you are so good.
And they’re smart enough to craft it in a way that makes them sound, you know, so humble. And yet we go, really, what have you done? What has followed your hard work? And you go, there’s not a lot, but they do it in such a way that everybody loves them. And those people are hard to identify in organizations. Why would you get rid of that person? They were a joy to work with.
They’re a great teammate. never were a thorn in our side. Well, they did nothing. They didn’t accomplish anything. That’s why we had to get rid of this person or call them to coaching or call them to accountability. And that can be hard to spot for sure.
Mickey Mellen (16:07.378)
Right, yeah.
Mickey Mellen (16:17.61)
Yeah, lack of tension can be tough or lack of mistakes. I can’t remember who said it, but like I don’t fire people who make mistakes. I fire people who never make mistakes. It’s because yeah, if they’re just sitting back looking perfect, then what are they doing? They’re not getting anything done. So yeah, I like that. That was one is reading through. had a hard time really understanding, but what you just said made a lot of sense. That was very helpful. The last one is they’re hungry and they’re smart, but they’re not humble. So this is a skillful politician. These people are ambitious and may first appear to be humble, but they work only for their own interests. They use other people.
Justin Smith (16:24.672)
Yes.
Justin Smith (16:28.533)
Yes. Yes.
Justin Smith (16:46.615)
Yes. Patrick Lenzini goes on and says, this is the hardest one to identify. Because typically by the time you identify this person, it’s four years later and there’s a wake of destruction or cultural issues behind them because they mask it so well, because they’re smart enough to have the conversations or appear the right way to the right people. And they’re hungry. And so they get stuff done.
But they’re getting it done the wrong way, but they, you know, these are the people that if you’re a CFO at a company, if you’re the head boss, these are the people that suck up to you. And man, you go, these people are amazing. They’re getting unbelievable results and they charm me and they walk by my office and say, Hey, and they make sure I know who they are. And they are just, they’re lovely to be with. And everybody else, if you can get them to be honest is like, they are
They are in it for themselves. have no, you know, no desire for the, and you’re like, I don’t understand, but they come to me. Well, you have a prominent position and in part of their skillful politician, they’re playing you so that you can have their back. And so this is super hard to identify. and it’s probably the hardest one to identify because they’re so smart with the people that they engage in and how they craft their relationships in an organization that, it’s hard to figure out.
exactly, is this person actually this or are they an ideal team player? And they can mask it pretty well.
Mickey Mellen (18:20.938)
Yeah, I think the tricky part with all these too is we’re saying if they’re hungry and smart but not humble and you know all this it’s not like anyone’s just like two switches out of three like it’s it’s all on a scale somewhere and so yeah this is yeah it makes it very difficult to see because they might be a little humble more than the other guy but yeah it’s so complicated.
Justin Smith (18:37.538)
Yeah. And in different, different rhythms and cycles of business cycles in life and how those all intertwine. There’s times that I’m three of three and there’s times I’m two of three and I can move around. What am I cumulative over a long period of time? You know, hopefully that’s the ideal team player. But yeah. And that’s, I think that’s where common language that I think this is kind of where we’re getting to where organizations love this. And you mentioned your organization of we have the EOS model.
Mickey Mellen (18:53.31)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Justin Smith (19:07.096)
where we kind of look at this. Other organizations are just going, I don’t know how to identify what’s wrong with them. When I’ve introduced this concept and this framework to teams, time is of the essence in business, especially small businesses and people are the most important part of business that drives business forward. And if you can’t articulate and you can’t pinpoint and get your finger on exactly the personality traits or what’s working or what’s not working.
And this can drive on for six months, seven months, eight months. And by that time, for a lot of places, man, that’s a ton of, that’s a ton of issues. That’s a ton of cultural issues. That’s a ton of things. And so where I introduce this to groups is they get to be very crystal clear, their leadership team. Hey, if we’re dealing with a personnel issue, is this a hunger issue? Is this a humble issue? Is there a smart issue? And it just, I mean, it fast tracks it and they go, got it. And if you can embed this later on, we were talking, if you can embed this in the culture.
This is what you hire towards. is what you coach towards. This is how you develop. This is where a leadership team can now confront you and, Justin, we just don’t feel that you’re being too hungry over the last couple months. I didn’t even recognize that I was coming across as not hungry. Got it. If I have my ego in check, if I know these three ideals of the company and the organization.
You giving me that feedback allows me to self-correct and as Lindsay only kind of mentions, they get to opt in or opt out of great cultures. I loved one of the, one of the parts of the book that he says, Hey, if you keep the jerks in some of the first people to go are the good people. And it’s like, how, how do we, as we’re creating amazing, vibrant cultures in our organizations, how do we recognize the jerks first?
Mickey Mellen (20:38.956)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Smith (20:58.185)
So that we can either rein them in and give them a framework of where to, how to play. Or the last thing that we don’t want to do is keep those skillful politicians that smile at me, but treat everybody else poorly. And then all of my good people leave and I’m stuck with a skillful politician in my organization. And the wake of, you know, disaster that I have to go clean up and that can be hard. so having clear.
Language around ideal team player hungry humble smart. What should we be looking for? How can we coach towards? all of those things help organizations move faster and identify people issues a little bit quicker than than just I Get a bad sense about this person. I can’t articulate it. They’re just not And and we’re on opposite pages which I think it’s interesting Mickey in in organizational life as I go through and take certain people through this
Mickey Mellen (21:33.324)
Hmm.
Mickey Mellen (21:43.243)
Right.
Justin Smith (21:55.836)
It’s great for the leadership team to be on the same page around certain words. When I say humble, guys, this is what it should mean in our organization. When we say humble, it’s not this, it is this. Anybody that’s worked on a team has inside jokes where they can say a phrase or a word. I you and I could go way back and say a certain phrase or certain words that we just go, I know exactly what that means.
Mickey Mellen (22:00.894)
Mm-hmm.
Mickey Mellen (22:17.14)
Right
Mickey Mellen (22:21.676)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Smith (22:22.251)
And it doesn’t mean face value what the word is, but we use, got it. You know, those things, that’s what we want in an organization. That’s what we want in our communication style in, in the organizations because that, fast tracks things. they’re hungry and humble. Maybe not smart. Cool. Now I can be looking out for it. Now I can be coaching towards, now I can be interviewing towards, Hey, Justin, I need you to take somebody out on an interview to lunch. And I really want to dig deep if they are.
Mickey Mellen (22:24.769)
Right.
Mickey Mellen (22:44.213)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Smith (22:52.03)
hungry, Cool. Simple. It fast tracks it.
Mickey Mellen (22:53.152)
Gotcha. That’s, yeah. This is fantastic framework here. I’m looking back, so in 15 years we’ve only laid off two people, which is fantastic. We’re in theory big believers of hire slow, fire fast, and I don’t think we fired either one fast enough, but part of the problem was we didn’t have this framework, and looking back on the most recent one from a few years ago, she was very clearly not hungry. If you at this framework, she was humble and she was smart, which made it tough, because yeah, I mean she was lovable and she tried to get along and she knew how to play it and was…
Justin Smith (23:02.537)
Yes.
Justin Smith (23:19.198)
Yes.
Mickey Mellen (23:23.188)
Seemingly eager to learn but just never got any work done like and it couldn’t quite figure out what that meant and like seeing this here’s like There’s lovable slacker. That’s exactly it. Like it’s yeah having this framework to measure everyone against this is just fantastic
Justin Smith (23:36.8)
So I love using this and asking people, hey, where do you fall on this? Lindsay only has a quick assessment right at the end of the book that I think you can fill out on your own, but you can come up with your own. Hey, Mickey, out of these three, what’s your best? Hey, what’s your worst? Hey, Justin, what’s your best? What’s your worst? You can put it in a Google form. You could just fill it out on a sheet of paper. And then we have some real data around.
Mickey Mellen (23:54.39)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Smith (24:04.466)
okay. So Mickey, you say your best or worst is X. How are we going to get better at that? okay. Got it. Hey, Mickey, let me ask the rest of your team what they think about you and kind of do a mini three 60 on three questions. And then is there a disconnect where you go, I am so hungry and I drive, drive, drive, drive results. And they go, actually, that’s, that’s what we feel is Mickey’s worst. get to do that with organizations and
Mickey Mellen (24:17.154)
Nice.
Mickey Mellen (24:29.93)
Hmm.
Justin Smith (24:30.963)
The emotionally intelligent people are very aware of what their strengths and weaknesses are. The people that they go, I am by far the hungriest person on the, on the staff team. And you do this and you go, well, that’s actually everybody ranked you the lowest in that. And, it’s interesting when you go to ego and smart, those things are glaring. Well, well, actually your team ranked you really, really low on what they did.
How is that possible? It wouldn’t be so and so and so so and so and so. And I said, have you spoken with so and so and so and so so and And they’re going, I will go immediately. But it gives them a framework of, and we’ve had some aha moments in this, but they go back to somebody and go, hey, I just want to know how did you rank me? And I want to get better. And that’s the humble side. And they go, I don’t think you’re very humble. What? Okay, well.
Mickey Mellen (25:04.862)
You
Justin Smith (25:26.414)
How can you call me out on it next time? Can you point out what I’m doing that makes me not humble towards you, towards different things? And it’s led to some really good change in a little mini 360. So that’s a really good way of growing and developing EQ as all leaders are and trying to get better. And this framework is just one of those, where do I stand? How would people respond to me?
How can I grow? Am I an ideal team player? Great, yay. Pat me on the back, I’m the best. But I do think that this simple framework has a lot of depth to it in its simplicity.
Mickey Mellen (25:57.695)
Right.
Mickey Mellen (26:06.188)
I love that, In thinking through it, think, and again, I need to unpack it further. I think my weakest is probably smart. Been looking at my business partner, Allie, I think her strongest may be smart. And I think that might be part of why we work so well together. She’s able to pull out those kinds of things that I just miss. I try to catch that, but I’m just not as in tune with things as she is. And she’ll pull out things like, Brooke hasn’t said much this meeting. We might need to check on her. like, what are you talking about? She seemed fine, but she’s able to see that. So think having that as a partner was, in our case, pure luck, but I think it could be
Justin Smith (26:23.007)
Yes.
Justin Smith (26:28.597)
Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Mickey Mellen (26:36.824)
useful I think in a partnership to find people that kind of have the inverse of what you have to make sure you’re balanced out.
Justin Smith (26:42.064)
For sure, that’s a really good one. And those smart people as Allie, and I know Allie really well. Yes, she is so people aware and people smart. And she would have a high EQ around social. And she would pick out, hey, Mickey, after that meeting, so and so is this, and so and so, and so and so, and so. And you’re like, I thought it was a great meeting. And we hit all of the check boxes. And yeah, and it’s just like, what? How does that happen? And so yeah, how do, if that was the case for you, how?
Mickey Mellen (26:49.502)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Mickey Mellen (27:00.916)
Yep. Right, correct. I missed all of it, yeah.
Justin Smith (27:11.779)
How do we raise smart for you and create some awareness around that? And then how do we get Allie to continue to elevate that, but also work on some of these other things that maybe needs to be her areas that she needs to get better.
Mickey Mellen (27:14.849)
Right.
Mickey Mellen (27:26.368)
Yeah, this is fantastic. yeah, I think we’re about out of time here. This has been great. Certainly encourage y’all to check out the book and do some of the worksheets. mean, yeah, Lindsay only has a lot of great resources here, but you probably have some on your side as well. How can people find you and track you down?
Justin Smith (27:42.245)
Yeah, I’m at leadersmith.co and would love to be able to engage teams and leaders and get them better. I have tons of different workshops built around this. one of the fun things that we get to do with organizations. I’ve broken this down when we come up with common language. Hungry, we do a couple different team building exercises involving food.
And it’s not just competitive eating challenges, but it allows them to relax and enjoy each other as a team while thinking of food. Here’s a hint at that. Like how many burger restaurants can you name? And you’re like, well there’s 10. No, actually there’s like 40 that you could probably name off if you really get down in hunger. Humble, there’s a couple of different things, simple puzzles, simple questions.
Mickey Mellen (28:06.1)
Nice.
Mickey Mellen (28:16.236)
You
Mickey Mellen (28:22.195)
Mm-hmm, right.
Yep.
Justin Smith (28:32.626)
that humble some people in organizations and it’s a great chance for people to laugh and egos to really come down as you just facilitate a conversation around it and then smart we play are you smarter than a fifth-grader Jeopardy version and it’s typically custom tailored to your organization or industry but then there is the fifth grade questions and that can be the smart people are like yes I get to do this and then Yikes, I don’t know as much as I think that I do around fairly basic questions
Mickey Mellen (28:45.581)
Nice.
Mickey Mellen (28:57.782)
Yeah.
Justin Smith (29:02.534)
and
Mickey Mellen (29:02.924)
I think that points back to humble then too, because you humbled real quick like fifth grader, I got this smoked and then yeah, it’s yeah.
Justin Smith (29:08.209)
For sure. stuff like that custom builds for teams around this just tees up a conversation for people to then go, okay, this is obviously not about burger restaurants. And are you smarter than the fifth grader? But this is about hungry, humble, smart. So as an organization, how are we adopting and how are we, you know, embedding this into our culture? And it’s a great framework for people to go, this is so good. I actually use it. I’ve been one of the guys.
Mickey Mellen (29:12.843)
Awesome.
Justin Smith (29:35.953)
I’ve been hiring off of these hiring principles for 20 years. When I read this book and you walked us through, I’ve added two new questions to look for that I just have not done for 20 years. It’s like, this is fantastic. So yes.
Mickey Mellen (29:44.638)
Nice. Hmm, very cool.
Awesome, yeah, you can find Justin at leadersmith.co, I’ll put a link in the show notes. And Justin, great to have you as always, man. See you soon. See ya.
Justin Smith (29:55.974)
Thank you. We’ll see Mickey.
Mickey Mellen (30:03.776)
I’ll trim off whatever it gets here. I don’t know why it hesitates on stopping lately. It’s something to do with how works, but yeah. It’s not like it freezes. It’s just like, I’m stopping eventually here. no, that was good. No, was, dude, that was fantastic. That was great. They were trying to figure out what we’re doing for our team events next year. And we may have you come in and do this. Like, this is a workshop you run for a team like ours, yes? Okay. Yeah, this would be cool.
Justin Smith (30:14.832)
I went off on some tangents, I apologize.
Justin Smith (30:28.892)
Mm-hmm, for sure, for sure.
Mickey Mellen (30:32.172)
Alright, normally it’s stopping for like five seconds, it’s still going, but that’s alright, I’ll trim it in a minute. I don’t know what it’s doing.
Justin Smith (30:38.505)
Yeah, it would be a fun, you know, that would be an in-office quick thing and it would be fully custom towards you guys.
Mickey Mellen (30:57.569)
Yeah.
Mickey Mellen (31:05.492)
Right.
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