In this episode, Chris LaFay and I dug into “Feck Perfuction” by James Victore.
You can listen to the episode here:
You can find more about Chris at ClassicCity.com or connect with him on LinkedIn here.
Full Transcript:
Mickey Mellen
You know what’s better than perfect? Done. Done is better than perfect. That was a super quick quote from James Victore’s book, Feck Perfuction, and here to discuss it today is Chris LaFay. So Chris, welcome.
Chris LaFay
Hey, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to this. This is a book that I’ve been wanting to read for the last few months. So thank you for like forcing me to sit down and actually do it. I’m excited about it.
Mickey Mellen
Perfect.
Nice, well that’s always my first question, because I say our guests get to pick the book. So you picked this book and so it’s because you wanted to read it. So now that you’ve read it, here we are to talk. So what are some of the main things you took away from it?
Chris LaFay
So it’s a unique book, right? Like it’s not this like 150, 200 page, we’ll just call it story, even for a business book. It’s this very divided up, almost like parable-esque type of content. And honestly, A, I personally prefer that.
I read very slowly and I would prefer more bite-sized chunks to dig through and pull very like small tidbits from throughout the course of it rather than sitting and reading through an elongated start to finish book. On the flip side this came recommended from a guy named Benj Miller who I know who I like and respect a lot and so A there’s that piece of it too and the whole idea behind
Mickey Mellen (01:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yep, yeah, I Ben’s, yeah. Good dude.
Chris LaFay (01:42)
just getting started and not worrying about perfection just resonates with me overall. And so all three of those pieces put together was like, this is something that I want to read.
Mickey Mellen (01:57)
Gotcha, very cool. Yeah, the thing you said just getting started is important, which it is, but this book also talks about like that quote I just shared, just getting finished is important too, not getting hung up on perfection there, which is dangerous. I think I leaned too far into what the book promotes here and like ads good enough and it’s fortunate I have a business partner that leans too far the other way where she wants everything perfectly polished and so we’re able to usually meet in the middle and have something that’s, she doesn’t waste too much time making it perfect, but she forces me to take it a few steps further than it might have dumped prematurely. So it works out pretty well.
Chris LaFay (02:26)
I have been and still am a perfectionist. I want everything to be a hundred percent done. And it’s interesting because in my work life, I’m okay with good in general, especially when it comes to like internal work, like I’m okay with good, like let’s get it started with client facing work. I’m definitely a little bit more on the side of perfectionism and things along those lines.
in regular just personal life none of those things apply and as long as it is in some form of being done that is all i care about and so it’s just interesting to see the different aspects of like personal life life and work life and how all that interconnects together of how much are you fecking perfection affect effectively so
Mickey Mellen (02:57)
you
Nice.
Right. Yep. Interesting. Yeah. Another thing I really drew from this book that was interesting and goes against a lot of the other stuff I read. So I’m curious your thought on that is his take on the muse, kind of the inspiration that strikes. So he says, the most common knowledge about the muse is that she won’t find you at your desk, in an office or on a schedule, which like you need to go out and be inspired. But then Seth Godin talks all the time about like, no, you need to just do the work and the inspiration will come.
And so he’s shared the quote from Somerset Mom, I think I’ve shared it here before, that said, I write only when inspiration strikes. Fortunately, it strikes every morning at nine o’clock sharp. So it’s basically say if you sit down and start writing, you’ll have some garbage, but then it’ll get here. But this book is kind of saying the opposite, like no, no, you can’t just find it at your desk. You need to go out and find the muse. What are your thoughts there?
Chris LaFay (04:01)
So I have recently started and honestly this is and thanks to you indirectly is I have started blocking off one day of my calendar to where it is my writing day. And I know we’re talking about creativity in general here, but honing on specifically with this is I block off every Friday.
Mickey Mellen (04:16)
Yeah.
Chris LaFay (04:22)
no meetings unless there is just a fire that only I can handle. And that is my writing day. I write my blog posts that day. I write my LinkedIn content. If there’s an email newsletter that needs to go out, things along those lines, all of that is done that day on schedule. And I have found so far that having that type of structure in my life,
Mickey Mellen (04:28)
Nice.
Chris LaFay (04:46)
has allowed me to turn my brain off during that period of time and I have something to look forward to and I think that by looking forward to that Friday allows me to be able to when I do have these creative muse ideas kind of sporadic throughout the week I can jot them down put them in a safe place knowing that come Friday I can expound upon them.
And at that point, it doesn’t really matter where I’m at. And I’m definitely a kind of like the Seth Godin mindset of schedule it, start and do it and it will get done. And it might not be the best first draft. It might need editing. It might need all that. But the way that I work and the way that I have seen success is scheduling and getting it done. And if I can actually get out of the
these four walls here, all the better. That’s going to help. But if I’m consistently getting out of these four walls during the course of the week, intentionally talking to new people, hearing their opinions and thoughts and ideas of things, and putting myself into different situations throughout the week, that schedule time on Friday, being highly structured really helps.
Mickey Mellen (05:45)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Yeah, you’re kind of doing both. That’s similar to what I do as well, where you’re getting the muse, the muse is finding you throughout the week as you’re out and about, but then you’re saying, okay, you capture it, make sure you put it in a trusted system somewhere. We talked about getting things done on the show a couple weeks ago. Having that trusted system is huge to make sure you save those things, but then when it comes time to write all your stuff there, you’re not having to be as creative because you have the creative thought from before you can re-inspire yourself and get going. I’m not as diligent as you in terms of blocking off a specific day. write periodically throughout the week as I have time, but it’s,
I have a list of ideas that I reference. Okay, here’s my 20 ideas, which one jumps out to me today, or which two or three are a handful of those from when I was inspired before.
Chris LaFay (06:48)
And I also, I’ve gotten into a habit, because one of the things I’m doing now, and I’ve done this for the last couple of months, is I live in the suburbs. There’s a lot of really cool people in Atlanta that I’d like to meet. And so I go into Atlanta and I meet with new people pretty much every single week. And what I’ve started doing is I’ve blocked off my Tuesdays to go down to Pond City Market. And that’s where I try to meet people on a regular basis. When I meet with people…
Mickey Mellen (07:10)
Nice.
Chris LaFay (07:14)
what I do is as soon as that meeting is over and we talk about a wide array of topics right everybody is different everybody has different stories I’ll record a voice memo as soon as that meeting is over because I get a lot of my ideas from these conversations and so I’ll record a voice memo of just me talking about all the various different topics any quotes that I remember that other person saying and just voice memo it all down on my phone
Mickey Mellen (07:28)
I bet.
Chris LaFay (07:41)
get that transcribed, which it does automatically now, which is fantastic. And I put that into my note system. And then from there, I can typically derive various different pieces of content over the course of the next couple of months. And so when I’m consistently doing that, that is a part that helps me during that process of just being intentional about hearing different points of view, like
the art of being intentional of meeting new people, hearing their perspectives on life, you’re going to find a lot of commonalities and that’s also fun. But then there’s that those fringe areas where there’s these like unique differences and whatnot and being able to dive into those and ask better questions of those really allows that the creativity and the curiosity to really be prevalent and a lot of life.
Mickey Mellen (08:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I love that. Your intentionality with that is fantastic. I do meet with lot of new folks when I can, but again, you having a specific day to do it and planning ahead and I think you do it lot better than most folks I know, including myself. So kudos on that. I also love that you take the time, and most people should, but a lot of people don’t. I wrote about this on my blog not long ago is you make these voice memos and then you actually go back through and unpack them and pick them apart and do that. see people, the example I use is people taking pictures of slides at conferences. I remember there were some slides on screen, people would take pictures and I bet 90 % of those pictures lived in their
Chris LaFay (09:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mickey Mellen (09:05)
phone and like they’ll get the memory a year later like yeah that was fun but they didn’t actually unpack what they tried to capture you know you do a good job of that and I don’t want to get off track here but I’m curious where does all this live what is your note system you’re putting this into
Chris LaFay (09:17)
So, I know that you’ve been an Obsidian person for very long time. You got me hooked on Obsidian. Notions, just the way Notion interconnects things and how dynamic it is.
It won me over a few months ago. And so being able to view data in a lot of different ways and having everything highly structured that way, that visual piece really helped connect me to what I was writing. And so notions where I’ve been storing all this, thankfully they have a free plan. Super excited about that. And
Mickey Mellen (09:33)
Nice.
Well, the paid one is super cheap too, so they do a good job,
Chris LaFay (09:51)
Exactly. And so I’m very much a UI guy and their UI is something that is very comfortable for me. And so I’ve created a tagging system within Notion for various content ideas, whether it’s for blogs, emails, LinkedIn content, et cetera. And so that’s where I do a lot of my drafting. And then when I take these voice memos and I get them transcribed,
I’ll put them into one of those buckets is basically not uncategorized, but unexpounded upon, if you will, so that when I go to Friday, I can then look at my unexpounded thoughts, figure out how they plug into everything else, and then start writing about them and creating whatever I want to create from them. At that point, it’s easy.
Mickey Mellen (10:23)
Gotcha. Yep.
Awesome. Yeah, no, I had my whole life in notion for a while and I still have a lot of it there because it is a fantastic system I have nothing nothing against it to say I do think though we’ll be doing another Recording here soon. You and I will do a video walking through some of your notions I’d love to unpack some of that and get some tips from you and I’ll show you some what I’m doing and that could be fun in and of itself But yeah again, I knew was getting us down a rabbit trail and I am so let’s get back on here But that’s fantastic to know Another piece I pulled out that I love and I’ve written about this quite a lot and I love he talked about it is I don’t know and so the quote I
Chris LaFay (10:54)
Yes.
Mickey Mellen (11:08)
pulled from the book he said the prominent Jewish scholar and philosopher Maimonides wrote teach your tongue to say I don’t know and ye shall progress and so the ability to say I don’t know is so difficult these days but it’s so
I think it’s so crucial. It reminds me a lot of the book, I never thought of it that way, which I’ve been thinking about a lot lately because it talks a lot about Democrats versus Republicans and mindsets and all that. And of course, at this recording, we’re a week before the election and when this comes out, it’ll be a week after, but it’s still right in that mindset. so understanding, my big thing is understanding why someone might vote differently than you. know, half the country is going to vote different than you did and be very confident in that vote. And you’re going to say, they’re idiots. I can’t believe they would vote for that person and what are they doing? But they have their reasons, at least understanding why they might do that, I think,
important. Disagreeing wholeheartedly. I disagree completely with people that vote differently than me but I’m saying like because of that and that and you know I don’t know is an important thing to learn.
Chris LaFay (12:02)
And saying what I’ve realized, so I’m very much a people pleaser. And so I really enjoy, I want there to be harmony. I don’t want there to be friction at all. And so on that same side of that token, I also don’t think very well on my feet in a lot of cases, not everyone, but a lot of them. And so…
Mickey Mellen (12:16)
Mm-hmm.
Chris LaFay (12:30)
being comfortable with saying, I don’t know, has been paramount for me because of that combination of people pleasing and wanting to find a solution, not having any friction.
talking over myself, trying to basically stumble through a hundred thousand words, trying to think on my feet and providing an actual answer while saying absolutely nothing at the same time doesn’t do anybody any good. And so being able to a say, I don’t know, but also if you’re not comfortable with saying, I don’t know,
Mickey Mellen (12:56)
You
Mm-hmm.
Chris LaFay (13:10)
Also just bouncing back and asking a simple question of why is that important? And pushing the dialogue further rather than trying to cut it off or rather than trying to prove a point. I think that’s part of that mixture of the personality that I know that I have is I’m not necessarily trying to prove a point, but I’m trying to instill confidence that I’m, I know what I’m doing. And then I just end up
Mickey Mellen (13:16)
Mm-hmm.
Chris LaFay (13:38)
looking like a fool and so being able to say I don’t know and ask the question why have been integral and kind of getting over that hump for me
Mickey Mellen (13:51)
I love the idea from James Keen said, when somebody persuades me that I’m wrong, I change my mind. What do you do? So it’s like being actually open to having your mind changed. And I mean, that goes to politics and everything else. Like I don’t think you’re going to change my mind on that, but I’m open to it. I want to hear why you believe what you do. And I mean, that’s why I’ve gone from iPhone to Android over the years and from Notion to Obsidian and different things, because I know what works for me, but I want to hear more. And sometimes it changes my mind or other times it just teaches me more about what I already believe.
Chris LaFay (14:12)
Yeah.
I’m also the mindset to like especially when it comes to researching and diving into something that’s new to you whatever that is it doesn’t really matter I don’t like the idea of doing hours and hours and hours and hours of research when somebody that I know and trust already has figured out the solution for them and so rather than diving down a rabbit trail of what car should I buy
I’m gonna go talk to one or two people who I know and I trust and who understand the types of qualities that I’m looking for and I’ll go to them and say, hey, you just did this six months ago. Tell me about what you found. Because I don’t know. And if I sense a lot of consistency in those responses, I’m just gonna dive down that and just be done and not spend a lot of time because I’m comfortable with not knowing.
and being okay with that, if other people that I trust and know more about that particular area than me have already spent probably way too long trying to research that decision, there’s no reason for me to do the same thing. Not it’s gonna waste time.
Mickey Mellen (15:24)
Right
Yep. And that’s.
That’s frustrating as a marketer and you’re in the same boat. We have very similar agencies knowing we’re doing all this work for SEO and get better stuff on social media and that does drive us some traffic and help our clients. But the overwhelming majority of people that find us and that find our clients are from referrals from their friends because they say, I don’t know what kind of web agency I need or I don’t know what kind of product they need and they talk to their friends and friends point in the right way. that’s where being on social helps to keep staying top of mind and stuff. But ultimately so much comes down to referrals, which are not directly in your control.
It’s frustrating, but it’s good.
Chris LaFay (16:05)
So I’m actually going to flip this around. I’m going to ask you a question. So there was a, there was a part in this book that the quote is the good news, the good news about your new role as a guide is the positive effect that you can have on the world around you. The world needs more teachers to share the wealth of their compassion and empathy, their excitement and their enthusiasm. Accepting your role as teacher instantly makes you a better person. Lead by example, see yourself reflected in others.
and be responsible for your actions and your actions in your legacy. So something I’ve realized recently, I’m in a couple of like various like mentorship groups and things like that. I know you are as well. Right. And I’ve had this I’ve had this question pop into my head a couple of times over the last few months and I don’t have an answer for it actually. But all these people
Mickey Mellen (16:47)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Chris LaFay (17:00)
are very intentionally pouring into me. They’re teaching me, they’re helping me, they’re answering my questions. And I flipped that around on myself recently and was like, who are you teaching? Who are you leading and guiding? So my question for you is, are you teaching or leading or guiding anybody right now? And how has that impacted? How has that impacted you?
Mickey Mellen (17:26)
good question.
I I try to teach a lot just because I found that’s one of the best ways to learn. mean, even answering this question, you’re making me kind of rethink some things and formalize my thoughts. And that’s why I blog every day too. Most of my blog posts are answering questions, but it’s me thinking through the answer and really formulating my thoughts and taking time to do it teaches me a lot. remember some years ago, we’ve hosted a meetup every month for gosh, 11 years now, but when GDPR was first coming out in the late teens, the general data privacy regulations in Europe, like that was going to affect websites. Like I don’t understand this thing. So why don’t
I teach our next meetup I’m gonna teach about GDPR and it forced me to learn it and get it in layman’s terms and and then of course even during the meetup people ask questions I didn’t know and other people had answers and the process of teaching helped a lot so I think and heck through this podcast I think we’re almost teaching others to a degree it’s not quite the same and I do mentor a high school student and that’s been very eye-opening just to understand his experience with School and stuff especially with AI that’s to get off a rabbit trail though But I asked him what AI a lot and the school is just like no AI doesn’t exist like close your eyes like well, that’s not good, but
That’s the different conversation. I try to teach a lot because I learn so much from teaching and then course try to learn from others. mean most of my blog posts come from books where I’m learning where others teaching me in the book and then I try to pull up pieces, tie them to other experiences and put that into something different. So yeah I think teaching is paramount and it helps establish authority and trust for potential clients and I mean there’s just…
Chris LaFay (18:27)
Yeah, it’s a point.
Mickey Mellen (18:47)
there’s not really a downside. You could potentially waste your time, but again, even if someone asks me a question I already know, it’s gonna solidify the answer in my mind, or they may disagree a little bit, which would be fantastic, and there’s always ways to learn more, so yeah.
Chris LaFay (18:59)
that’s an interesting way to think about it because while I’ve been pondering this, I’ve more been bucketing kind of that teaching aspect to one-on-one mentorship because that’s just what I’ve been, the world I’ve kind of lived in really, really heavily over the last year or so. And so I like the zooming out of
Mickey Mellen (19:15)
Mm-hmm.
Chris LaFay (19:26)
Yes, there is an aspect of teaching that is more around that mentorship and that one-on-one advising, but everything that you’re doing in some way, or form can be looked at that in some, in some way. If you’re being intentional about sharing your knowledge, sharing your process, talking about what you’re thinking and what you’re learning and publicizing that out in some way that is teaching.
It’s just not the mindset that I was having at the time. that’s, that’s a really interesting way to look at that. And I appreciate that, that, that shift. that’s
Mickey Mellen (20:02)
Yeah, and that’s, really I’ve shared before, that’s why I blog instead of journal. If someone journals every day, like kudos, that’s fantastic. But you can sort of get away with like dumping your thoughts and leaving them there. And by blogging, it forces me to sharpen a little bit, like what was that actual quote? And did that really tie to this? Like I want it to be a little more polished, which forces me to think through it and refine my answers a bit more and learn more in the process. So yeah.
Chris LaFay (20:24)
And like everything and blogging is, mean, obviously there’s ways to make that internal, but you know, anything that’s on the internet is going to be out there in some way, shape or form. But like by doing it in a public setting as well requires you to have that polish and requires you to have that, like, not necessarily this is my full takeaway because there’s a million different ways to blog.
Mickey Mellen (20:32)
Right, yeah.
Chris LaFay (20:46)
but it forces you to think through kind of almost A, B and C and not just kind of trail off kind of like what you can do in a private journal. You need to kind of wrap things up in some way, or form. It’s a good storytelling mechanism and no.
Mickey Mellen (20:52)
Right.
Yeah, and that goes, sorry, I was just gonna say that goes back to our original topic here of how much do you polish too though? I mean, I polish a blog more than I would a journal, but in my case, I still don’t polish it that much. Done is better than perfect, know? So if you read my blog, you will definitely see they’re not perfect, but they’re done and they should be pretty good, so yeah.
Chris LaFay (21:15)
And at the end of the day, don’t have to, you don’t have to write these like exactly similarly structured posts that are, you know, copy and paste with the right structures, the right headings, et cetera. Like just getting your thoughts and ideas out there. Somebody can learn from that, whether it’s 50 words like Seth Godin is amazing at doing, or, you know, longer winded things that are more tutorial driven or more really of a deep dive.
Mickey Mellen (21:32)
Yep, for sure.
Yep.
Chris LaFay (21:44)
both have equal weight at the end of the day. And rather than trying to go to make it perfect, get it to where it’s done and out there. I talk a lot about where I have talked a lot about to some of the people that I know, like your basics or somebody else’s breakthroughs. And just by talking about a topic,
Mickey Mellen (21:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chris LaFay (22:08)
with the inherent bias that you have of your entire life’s history, you’re going to say something basic in a way that somebody else hasn’t heard it before. It’s that whole concept of your parents tell you something like 25 times and you never do it. Then your random friend, Joe Schmo from school is like, Hey, bud, ever think about this? And then you start doing it. And your parents are like pulling their hair out of like
Mickey Mellen (22:27)
You
Right.
Chris LaFay (22:36)
told you this a hundred times, man. And so just getting it out there in a good enough format in a way that tells your story in your way, no matter how basic it is, doesn’t matter.
Mickey Mellen (22:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, well said. We’re getting a little low on time, but I had one more section I wanted to hit and then we’ll see if you have anything else here. But I love this because I’m sure you see this a lot too. So it’s a longer quote here, but he says, bad art makes you say, wow, huh? Good art makes you say, huh? Wow. Looking at bad art is like eating fast food. You’re excited about the thought of it. When it hits your stomach, the relationship ends quickly. Good art is seen, but not immediately understood. Huh?
And then comes the aha moment when the subtext, the real meaning unfolds and our mind expands. And so I know for us, and I’m guessing for you, when we show work to our clients, they shouldn’t say, wow, they should say, yeah, they should either be a little confused or just, yeah, it should just make sense. It shouldn’t be a surprise at that point when you work it out. However, for the work that their clients see, it should be more easily explained. It should be more of a, yeah, the question shouldn’t come up at all. I’m curious your thoughts on that, on your work to your clients versus the work you do for their clients.
Chris LaFay (23:47)
So it’s all about the right type of curiosity at the right time, right? I’ve been going back to this word curious a lot over the last month or so. when you’re telling, thinking about websites, when you’re telling the story for the very first time and you’re building a website with that particular person, it’s not public facing yet.
you’re working with them to figure out how are we going to unlock curiosity for their potential customers. And so there’s this initial huh moment when you’re looking at these like wireframes and mockups and all these other things, because that story necessarily hasn’t been 100 % finalized quite yet. And so you’re working through that initial.
Mickey Mellen (24:20)
Mm-hmm.
Chris LaFay (24:37)
I know what the story is. see these things here. I’m trying to figure out exactly how these pieces are going to come together. And that’s obviously, that’s part of what we do. We figure out those pieces, but then we’re looking at curiosity on the other side as well, because then when a client comes and views that site, they need to have that, huh, wow perspective, because you still want to have curiosity at the end of the day, we’re telling a story, right? There, you have to peak.
Curiosity you can’t just say everything in plain straight English. We build WordPress sites. Here’s what we do Here’s how like you can’t it. It’s like a plumber site, right? It’s like here’s the 25 services pick whichever one you want doesn’t matter force them to read through every Piece of that information Nobody is going to so you have to tell a story that peaks that in customers curiosity to make them feel the the feeling of Yeah
Mickey Mellen (25:18)
Right.
Yep.
Chris LaFay (25:35)
that does feel like me, that is the problem that I’m having. And so you have to peak curiosity in that way. And so you have to, how you tell that story and how you, where you place curiosity really determines success. Now there’s no metric I can’t necessarily say. If you place curiosity here versus there, you can tell a huge difference. But it’s that feeling that that customer gets when they go there and they’re like, yeah.
Mickey Mellen (25:59)
Yeah.
Chris LaFay (26:04)
That’s me. I feel connected there.
Mickey Mellen (26:08)
Yeah, I would say placement wise, I would put curiosity a step later for the end client though where they should come to your site and immediately say, that is my problem. They get me.
Well, now what do they do? How do they solve that problem? And then they have the curiosity behind it. But if you, I think if you make clients curious too much up front, they’ve got four other tabs open with all your competitors, and they’re gonna say, I don’t quite get this. Let me find one that’s more clear. So I think if you can clearly state how you serve them versus what you do, say, that’s the problem I had. They get me. Now I’m a little curious about learning more. And it can, yeah, it can really spark something there. That’s good way to put it.
Chris LaFay (26:39)
Exactly.
Mickey Mellen (26:40)
Fantastic. So this has been great Chris. This is this is awesome for those of you that haven’t read the book It’s only like a two and a half hour audible. So like a two and a far read. It’s a short book Yeah, there if you’re watching the video there it is But it’s fantastic encourage you to check it out Chris if one of if people want to find out more about you Where can they track you down?
Chris LaFay (26:57)
Connect with me on LinkedIn. I post a lot about entrepreneurship and web. And then you can also hit up classic city.com. If you’re looking to have some web help and if you don’t like how I do web, you should go talk to Mickey cause he does web too.
Mickey Mellen (27:09)
There you go and vice versa it works out. Yeah I’ll put those links in the show notes so you all can check them out. So Chris this is fantastic. I’ll chat with you soon. Thanks so much. See ya.
Chris LaFay (27:17)
Thanks, man.
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