034 – Deep Work, by Cal Newport

In this episode, Allison Giddens and I dug into Cal Newport’s “Deep Work“.

You can listen to the episode here:

You can find Allison on LinkedIn here.

Full Transcript:

To simply wait and be bored has become a novel experience in modern life. But from the perspective of concentration training, it’s incredibly valuable. So that was just a little bit from Cal Newport’s book, Deep Work. And here to discuss it today is Allison Giddens. Allison, welcome back. Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah, so good to have you here. So Allison, like I do with all these shows, you’re the one that picked this book. And I think you were pointing it at me because this is something I struggle with a lot. So I’m excited to dig into this, but

But why’d you pick Deep Work? What led you to want to talk about that today? think it’s something that you hit it right there. I mean, it’s hard because we struggle with it and it feels good when we do it, or at least it does for me. Like I feel fulfilled. feel like I’ve truly checked something off of a box when I do it and I finish it. It’s just really hard to find those times that are long enough to be able to dedicate to Deep Work.

Yeah, how long do you think is long enough? That’s a really good question. Sometimes I think 30 minutes, sometimes I think an hour, sometimes I mean, I, I’ve set aside time before for, for deep work that I know it’s a bunch of stuff that has piled up and it’s kind of one big project that I had intended and taking on little, little chunks and little pieces. But then I’m like, you know, I’m going to sit down and knock all this out. I’m just going to dive in and there’ll be times where I’ll block it off of my calendar.

And three hours later, I look at the clock and I’m like, my God, is it already three o’clock? Which is a little terrifying, but mostly exhilarating. Just know you’ve gotten that much done. And yeah, they talk about in the book that for a lot of people, one hour of deep work is about all they can handle. But with training, you can get up to about four, I think it said. So if you’re running three, that’s right up there. yeah. yeah. And to me, it’s almost and maybe it’s kind of maybe it’s not really truly deep work, but.

really there are times that I feel like I’m in the deep work, but I’m catching myself, you know, checking the email over here or, let me meet myself a quick note. got to grab this at the grocery store or, know, little things that you kind of get distracted from, but you still, you feel accomplished once you’re done with some thing off of your checklist, but you still, to me, it kind of feels empty. Yeah. It’s more productive than deep, which is a place for both for sure. But yeah.

Exactly. I’m great at being productive. I’m productivity master, but getting deep is where I need to be spending more time where I still struggle to do that. So yes, and it’s kind of reminds me too of that. that book flow and I’m not even gonna try to pronounce the last name. Yeah. it’s very much like that. It’s very, that deep work. does feel good when you’re doing it. It feels good when you’re, but you don’t recognize, you don’t realize it feels good until it’s over. You know, it’s not until you actually get it done that you’re like,

man, I’m accomplished and gosh, I’ve just solved the world’s problems and yeah. Yeah, for sure. And flow is something I think it’s almost a little different. think they can be the same, but I catch myself in a state of flow quite a bit, but I’m not sure it’s deep work because it’s flow. It’s more super productive. I feel great. I’m knocking off emails and doing this stuff and just get my list down and it’s great. We need that, but it’s different than deep work. think I’m, I it can be the same. think if you’re doing good, deep work, can feel like a state of flow, but I think

Yeah, at least for me, I feel like in flow in times when I know it’s not really deep though. Feels good. Getting a lot done, but yeah. Yeah, I’m in the zone, but not for long. Yeah. Quote from the book, I think sums that up pretty well. This is me exactly again. It calls me out. But he said, if you send and answer emails at all hours, if you schedule and attend meetings constantly, if you weigh in on instant message systems, all these behaviors make you seem busy in a public manner. If you’re using busyness as a proxy for productivity, then these behaviors can seem crucial for convincing yourself.

and others that you’re doing your job well. And yes, I’m awesome at that stuff. Yes. yeah. And I’ve, gotten better when it comes to the deep work piece. If I am, if sending emails as part of that deep work, which I think for some people it is, I mean, especially on the community, if you’re communicating, if it’s a big project and you’re in the middle of it and you know, it’s all you’re, kind of all consumed with it. I’ve been known, I love working really, really late at night.

one o’clock, two o’clock in the morning. But I’m not sending emails then, although kind of them, because I’m sending emails but I’m scheduling them. Yes, I do send that too. I love that. that late. Everybody thinks that, gosh, she’s sending an email at 8.15 in the morning. No, I’m not. I’m asleep. There you go. And so yeah, like that, you’re looking busy in public. Exactly. Now, I really liked how the author talked about being able to schedule the different type of strategies

And I was trying to figure out which approach I am. They were talking about kind of there’s that completely removing distractions and then dedicating a large time to deep work. There’s that kind of splitting time between deep work and other activities and kind of going back and forth. There’s that rhythm approach where you kind of you have a consistent set aside time for deep work. And then you have that time where you just kind of fit it in wherever. And I think my day to day job does not really allow me to say, OK, everybody,

At 10 a.m., know, leave me alone for an hour. It doesn’t happen. Yeah. So I kind of I take little approaches and I live and breathe by my Google calendar and I have color coded things depending on project and all this. yeah. And I will set a whole time period aside. And it’s it could be for that deep work. But then I’m trying to be nicer to myself where, you know, if life happens and I can’t get to it, it’s not the end. In most cases, it’s not the end of the world.

So I can just move it but but that block visually I see on my calendar There’s a block of time and that indicates to me I have to get to this and I can’t do anything else. I have to do this And so that has helped me I think when I’m when I’m pushing or when the goal is Deep work it helps because I’ve already in my head on my calendar Envisioned this giant chunk of time that is only this particular thing

Gotcha. think it may help help folks to tell people a bit about what you do, or least what your role looks like in terms of other people and distractions and that kind of stuff. Yeah. So I am a co-owner of an aerospace machine shop and there are constantly people in and out of my office. In fact, there are some times that I’ll shut my door if I have a meeting or a conversation like this one. And even when my door shut, people walk right in. There’s not a, there’s, there’s very little opportunity for

no distraction-free, distraction-free bit of time. I typically, 15 minutes doesn’t go by that somebody’s not in my office and asking a question or a phone is ringing or an email pop-up that I have to address right now. there’s a constant. But there’s also, it’s interesting because I think with our distractions, with our kind of, I guess, we’re so prone to being distracted or we are so resistant to boredom, I think, as the book put it, which I think is really well. But

There’s also, I got really bad at deep work for a while after my dad passed. So it was almost, and I read that it was almost a form of dealing with grief, how kind of your brain couldn’t do certain things again. I got distracted like crazy and it would give me a lot of anxiety in the process. So I’d be trying to work on something. Somebody would interrupt me and I’d get agitated about it. And this went on for a while and I was like, okay, why, you know, what’s going on? I realized it’s cause I couldn’t,

I couldn’t get into that deep work. couldn’t get into that flow of, okay, this is what I’m taking on right now. I’m not checking emails. I’m not looking at LinkedIn. I’m not doing any of those things. I am being deliberate in what I’m doing. so, I mean, think that that’s kind of a piece too. think people that that whole being bad at being bored. Yeah. That’s I think something to follow.

yeah, that’s something I’ve worked on specifically lately. I recently read Juliet Funtz, A Minute to Think. I don’t know if you’ve read that one before. It was fantastic. I took so many notes from it, but it basically that, like allow yourself to be bored. And I know like my business partner, Allie, she’s really good at that. Like, cause I listen to it, if I’m in the car, like I have that time, I listen to podcasts and catch up. And when she’s in the car without her kids, which is rare, she said it’s nothing. There’s no radio, no music, just like just chill. So I’ve tried to do that more. Like if it’s a nice day out I’ve had a busy day at work and I’m heading home like,

Roll the windows down and just maybe some soft music. But then I’m also like in the back of my mind like I all those podcasts I’m way behind on this one Yeah, yeah your brain is yeah No, no, no, there’s a there are these so I’m staying you too We’re all staring at computer screens all day long, right? yeah And so they tell us and I don’t know about your glasses But minor that blue light filter to kind of do the best I can at least yeah But they talk about how the blue light on the screen

hurts your eyes and over time it’s not good for whatever. And so I got these eye patches that are self-heating and they’re disposable. Well, what I realized, I opened them up and they’re supposed to help with your cornea health or whatever. So I’m like, sure, I’ll spend the $20. Let’s see what happens, right? And so I pull them up and I open it up and I realize, my gosh, I 15 minutes, I put these on my eyes and I can’t see anything. It’s like, my gosh, I can’t play on my phone. I can’t, you you can’t.

So it was kind of crazy the first time I used them. Talk about being forced into boredom. Yeah, I mean lying there and putting them on your eyes. You’re going okay now I have I have to be in my own head. That’s it. You don’t have a podcast or something in the meantime. Yeah, that’s what I would do. yeah, yeah, but so was kind of like a forced set of boredom that it’s like, okay, maybe I could get used to this. It was you know, it’s nice. It was a nice little relaxing. How often have you done them?

I’m only twice since that’s a week. But more than once is kind of thing. You did it once and you’ve done it again. So yeah, it’s not that bad. Yeah. So very cool. Yeah, I don’t have blue light glasses. I’ve taken all the screens I look at and put the blue light mode on. They all have like a yellow glow. They look a little weird, but then I don’t have to worry about it. Just yeah, my computer is my phone. They all have that and every now and like when it’s booting up, it’ll switch like and I was like, it’s glaring and then yeah, like and then it kicks in and has the yellow mode. It’s nice.

The other thing I’ve noticed too, you may have seen this with your eye patch thing is if I am able to drive home without anything on, I tend to have some pretty good ideas like, yeah, I can do that. I need to reach out and just yeah, just let my mind run for a little while can be very helpful. well, they talk about like some some best ideas you have in the shower, you know, exactly. for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Too bad. It’s not a notepad and a pen or I have seen those kind of, you know, goofy marketing schticks where it’s like, waterproof. yeah.

No, I’m not having good ideas enough that many right you have to write them down. Yeah, so there’s there’s that I liked how when with the book talked a little bit about batching some of your smaller tasks together Yeah, so it kind of allowing I think Kind of compartmentalizing the smaller things compared to the bigger things or the time kind of opportunities for because otherwise I feel like I’m bouncing Back and forth too much and I’m not allowing myself

to deep dive stuff. It’s hard to identify too what really is small. I I’ve got probably 50 emails to address and you could say, those are small emails. But one, you open up and it’s daunting. It’s, identify 70,000 things on the spreadsheet. It’s like, well, that requires deep work. So is this email task a small badge or a deep work? Yeah, my business partner, Ali, she was out much of last week and so her email piled up huge.

And this week she got it down. She’s down to 15, but it’s 15 brutal ones. Like it’s not, you know, that bad, but just 15 that all require thought, know, she took care of all the easy ones and deleted the spam and all that. got down to 15, like, who, and that was more daunting than the hundreds. Cause she knew that all those had significant weight behind them. yeah, yeah. Sometimes I like to, when it comes to my work emails, I don’t like a full inbox. So if I know it’s going to take some deep work, I’ll take it.

file it somewhere in my email, and then I’ll reference it in my task list for a specific day. And that way, when I know I’ve got to do stuff or when I’m looking at my Google Calendar for my meetings, I can look at the task list and see, well, I’ve got a lot of things to complete today, and I’ve got a heavy calendar day. Well, then can automatically know there’s going be no deep work today. But I think a lot of it, too, is giving yourself the permission to do what needs to be done.

Because that’s I I you know, I think I’d feel guilty for doing things over other things when I thought I should be doing one over the other. Yeah, and I Somebody said to me not long ago, know, you make time for what matters So don’t feel guilty about the stuff that you are prioritizing because if it were a priority to you you’d do it, right? Yeah, they say if you want to see someone’s priorities look at their calendar, right?

That’s sometimes it’s okay. And sometimes I’m a little ashamed and you know, it’s Part of what we signed up for and we’re both owners and that’s you got a different kind of situation. We’re in there. So yeah, that’s interesting Yeah, there’s there’s one thing he said in the book He said if you don’t produce you won’t thrive no matter how skilled or talented you are and producing usually comes from deep work I mean, you’re using good stuff I mean producing emails and that matters a little bit, but I mean, yeah, not really and yeah, you won’t thrive Yeah, no matter how skilled he says so yeah, you can be the

best person ever. If you don’t find the time for deep work, you’re not going to produce the good stuff. And yeah, you’re not going to thrive. anybody can do this stuff. The robots do. Right? Yeah, we’re seeing that more and more to it. Yeah. What is AI taking away? And it’s yeah, you can see what it takes away that we shouldn’t be doing. And maybe it’ll give us a better place here soon if we can only be doing deep work, because all that stuff is taken care of for us. But we’ll, we’ll see. I mean, it seems to be kind of doing the opposite. I’ve seen memes going around saying it’s taking away like the art and writing and all that and leaving us to do like the opposite like

Let us do the art, let it do the email, but it’s not where it is yet. We’ll see where it ends up. I don’t want to get off on a rabbit trail, especially one that’s counter to the book, but what task management are you using to like system to handle that with emails and stuff? Honestly, I use Google Calendar for my, I kind of double, I do a little bit of manual work here, but it’s totally worth it for my system. I have my work calendar and my work task list all in Outlook. Okay.

But whenever I have a meeting pop up for work, it goes color coded a specific color on my Google calendar. And so at least then I have Google has everything, my volunteer, my home life, my everything. you got it. So I can kind of, it’s nice and easy to be able to, know, certain people at my office can see everything I have going on with the office, but they don’t necessarily need to know that I need to remember to put the trash out on Tuesday. You know, like that.

Gotcha. Very cool. Yeah, it’s always interesting how much you want to share calendars and stuff because I’ll have chunks of my day blocked off on my personal calendar, which means Calendly can’t hit it. But then my team can’t see it either. And they’re like, what’s what’s he doing? You know, so yeah, it’s interesting balance. When it comes to the everything seems like it’s got a different app to work with to it. That doesn’t help the whole deep work. No, not at all. It just kind of overwhelms you into thinking you’re being productive when really know you’re just

preparing to be productive. Yes. Yeah. I’m a big sucker for preparing to be productive. Playing with systems and yeah. Yeah. With Obsidian and Tana and just all the different that I can make. I can make them so much better if I just spend another 10 hours and yeah, yeah, yeah. little bit better, but is it worth the 10 hours that I could have been doing something better for? yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tough thing. he has a whole section about dependence on distraction, which again, I think he’s talking to me there too. Like once your brain has become accustomed to on-demand distraction, Clifford Nass discovered it’s hard to shake the addiction even when you want to concentrate.

To put it more concretely if every moment of potential boredom in your life say having to wait five minutes in a line or sit alone in a restaurant until a friend arrives is relieved with a quick glance of your smartphone and your brain has likely been rewired to the point where like the mental rex in his research is not ready for deep work even if you regularly schedule time to practice this concentration, so Yeah, that’s that’s another challenge is when it’s time for deep work. It’s I have two challenges I guess really one is yet getting my brain to focus, but really it’s partly. What should I be focusing on? I’m not always like all right. I time for some deep work. What what should that be like?

And there’s also the emails over there that are calling my name instead. yeah. Yeah. You’ve seen that too, as you’ve grown in the company. You it used to be my job was to do tasks and now my job is to do deep work. But what exactly should that be? It’s sometimes the answer is easy and sometimes it’s not. Yeah. And I think that there, have been fortunate in past a few weeks, we’ve hired a couple of people to help a lot with some tasks that I was taking on that it was, it was dumb that I was having to do certain things and these people are so much better at it than I am. So.

we’ve offloaded some of those things and I’ve had the opportunity now to kind of deep dive into certain things and I’ve noticed at the end of the day, I’m like excited about it. And I think that’s key too is when you’re done with something in deep work, you know, do you feel like, okay, I’m kind of energized about something or I’m happy to have been, you know, been able to do something. And I think we spent a lot of our time doing the stuff that has to be done and doing those, you know.

I went to an event this morning and I sat at a table. We were supposed to appoint a person with a laptop to be able to enter things into menti.com as we were all working together on something. And of the four people at the table, two of them were like, I don’t want to pull my laptop out because I’m just going to play on my, on play on all my emails and not listen to the presentation. And in the back of my head, I’m thinking, so then just close your email client. That’s what I do. If I’m going to, I just don’t open it.

But how bad is it that all of us, like you said, if the distractions there, man, we’re taking it. Yeah. But good on them for recognizing that though. Yeah. That was impressive. Yeah. Yeah. I was in one yesterday at lunch and I did close my email client at work, but I was one of the only ones on a laptop and I felt a little conspicuous. But for me, it was kind of a time saving. I was entering stuff right into Tana and like linking stuff up and taking notes. And like I was super engaged, but it still felt a little weird. Like a lot of times that’s where I’ll pull out. I have a Kindle scribe, you know, to read also for notes, just

If another is not to look like I’m doing something else just to make it clear that I’m here because on the laptop I was there but it might not have looked like it to folks, know, yeah, so it’s a tough balance. It is. Yeah, again, knowing it I think is a huge part of the part of the battle. It’s something that’s worked well for me with this too is you familiar with EOS I think, correct? You know, traction. No. Okay, the entrepreneurial operating system. Okay, it’s a framework for running a company that that we’ve incorporated with our business but

One thing they talk about in there is having clarity breaks that you should as an owner, they say daily, if not weekly, and I do it a couple of times a month, but just taking a pen and a paper and going just out, just go sit at a bench, just do something just for a half hour and just with no agenda. And it is weird because the first 10 minutes, what am I doing? I got to get the law and just write stuff down. it becomes like often it’ll bring up just great thoughts as I start digging in deeper. yeah, talk to Alison about the thing. I can work on that project and

It’s nice just to there’s no way to be distracted. it’s been, that’s a fascinating thing that I write about a good bit and I’ve done some, but I need to do more consistently, but just, yeah. I like that idea. We, I guess about six months ago, we put a picnic bench outside under a couple trees out front. So that might be a good, I mean, it’s starting to get, you know, mean, it’s little chilly today, but today’s awful, but yeah. Right. But yeah, that could be a good, good way to just kind of get away and a good excuse to change the scenery.

Yeah, the thing I’ve tried to do too. when I do it right, it works. I use I forgot the name the Apple a meditation app to see like a two minute meditation. I’m not a big meditation guy, but it’s nice just to kind of get me settled and calm and like, kind of open my eyes and let’s go, you know, making kind of and then again, let’s go is like, well, now what I have a blank piece of paper, but still it kind of just gets me settles me down gets me in the right mindset. Because usually it’s running from something like, alright, stop now. like, Yeah, the amount of times that I’ve had to switch gears today.

I mean, I had that meeting this morning and then that went into a quarterly call with somebody I’m very comfortable with. And then there were three or four meetings back to back that went from adversarial to fact-finding to friendly to… And so was all this, you have to kind of in your head, you know, and to me at this point in the day, I’m a little bit further ahead in my productivity than I am right now. So…

Part of me feels overwhelmed because I know I’m not getting any deep work done today. But at the same time, like I said, I’m trying to learn to give myself permission. There’s no law that says you have to do deep work every day. Right. for sure. I’m glad there’s not. Yeah. Yeah. And you’re in a tough spot because you’re in the office every day. I assume. Yeah. I’m in a couple of times a week. So at least when I’m home like I am today, it’s easier to because I can turn off Slack for a minute and block out something on my calendar. And people may need me if they need me. But generally speaking, I can take some time if I need it. Yeah. That’s great.

Yeah. Now we were closed on Fridays. So when I’m here on Fridays, it’s quiet. I can get things done. however, yeah, you can be the only car in the parking lot and you can sign that has your hours, but you’ll still have people knocking on the door. So I would lie to you if I say it was uninterrupted, whether it’s the ups guy or, a customer or a vendor or a solicitor, whatever. is it a four day work week for rest of your team or do they work on from home? All four, all four days. There’s nobody that worked remotely.

Okay, nice. So four day for them and seven day for you. yeah. Yes. You know, yeah, how owners are. It’s all good. Sometimes I give myself Sundays off sometimes. That’s so generous. Yeah, I know. It really is when I asked for permission. Yeah, that’s so nice of you to let yourself do that. Another quote that kind of ties into exactly what you said. He said, quote, your goal is not to stick to a given schedule at all costs. It’s instead to maintain at all times a thoughtful say in what you’re doing with your time going forward.

And I love that. mean, you kind of hit that a little bit where you don’t have to do it every day. But I think it also that thoughtful say in what you’re doing kind of goes back to the people you saw this morning that were, should I pull up the laptop? It’s going to be bad. So they were thinking ahead of how they wanted to treat that event. And yeah, that’s, that’s fascinating. And kudos to them for that. And yeah, was, yeah. Having just yet having that digital tablet, isn’t it? Not an iPad, but like, yeah. I had remarkable for a while, which actually I picked up an event we met at years ago. I got my first remarkable after that because someone there was showing it off.

And that got me going remarkable and remarkable too. And now I’m on the Kindle scribe and they’re all basically the same where they’re dumb devices that they’re super smart, but they don’t connect to anything, which they’re not consistently connected. There’s no notifications, no anything. It’s essentially a pad of paper, but you used to be cool and digital, but there’s no distractions, which is just fantastic. And yeah, so I use those a lot in meetings if I don’t use that. But then that requires me to then have time somewhere in the day to process those notes. That’s where that lunch yesterday, I was able to process them right in my system. Whereas otherwise I’d have a whole page full notes that I need to go in and put down like,

There’s this note and I got to contact this person and there’s this book they recommend. Yes, whatever I come up with. like that idea. Heck yeah. Yeah, which I enjoy doing. I enjoy the processing. Some people hate that. I kind of like that, but you still got to have time somewhere for that then too, which is not deep work. You know, that’s very clerical work, but it’s not one I could offload really either. I want to take the time to say, okay, she said this, but how I interpret it, like I don’t want to just dump the stuff in. I want to take a minute and say, okay, like she recommended this book that’s we’ve talked about before. My list of books to read is littered with Alison Giddens recommended this book and she said it was great. And like,

But that’s why I record that stuff. When I hear that stuff, I make sure it gets in the system, but it takes more, yeah, menial work to get it there. But it’s again, that work I want to offload to anyone else either. I want to take it myself and say, she recommended it here’s why she said, and she also said that one. They kind of go together and like, it’s cool thought connecting. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It’s intentional. It’s not just throwing it on a list and you’ll never see it again. Right. And that’s the kind of work I’m great at is that kind of substantial work, but not deep work. yeah, it’s that in between. Yeah. That high level that’s tough. So

Yeah, it’s difficult to do, but I don’t have the answer, but think clarity breaks help for me in scheduling like Robert on our team does a great job. I see his schedule where his schedule is basically all blocked out. You know, a lot of it is focused time to work on this project, focused time to write this strategic thing. And you know, again, like you said, sometimes it doesn’t work out like he gets interrupted and can’t do it then, but it’s there. And if things work out, which it often does cool, he knows he has that hour to really build that messaging strategy to get it get a good because that the kind of work he does requires deep work. I’d argue more than

My job does although I think it’s more a factor if I need to yeah see what that deep work should be for me and his is kind of spelled out more clearly but yeah, it’s amazing you know, talked about what if you don’t produce you won’t thrive and his ability to produce I think is a direct result of the deep work He gives himself because he produces more than almost anyone I’ve ever met it’s amazing the stuff he puts out minutes because he focuses and has that deep work time and yeah Yeah, it works out

So yeah, so yeah deep work something something I struggle with but we’re all getting better and I think reading these books and talking about it and hearing hearing ways you you deal with it and stuff I think help so yeah, maybe I’ll try to catch me a clarity break this afternoon, but I usually outside and yeah I have to get out of the house to do it at least in the backyard I have a nice chair back there, but it’s rainy and stuff like well guess no deep work today. It’s not check some emails. Yeah Any other final thoughts for someone that hasn’t heard this book or even if they have read it? Yeah, I think if nothing if for no other reason

If you’re looking to try to get better at deep work, it’s it’s good. It kind of motivates you a little bit to try to find that sweet spot that works for you. So yeah, it’s a good book. Yeah. Yeah. I would say guess kind of on that is being uncomfortable with silence. I think it’s helpful because again, the first whenever I hop in the car and don’t put anything on, it’s just weird like hearing the rattles and stuff. But then again, it usually works out where I have some some great thoughts as it goes on. But it’s that you got to get past that uncomfortable like, forget this. I’m going to turn on the radio like now. Just just sit with it for a minute and

Same with like a clarity break. The first few minutes of clarity break are just like, what am I doing? Like, but then eventually things just kind of lets your brain be weird and it’s kind of awesome. yeah. So yeah. Deep work by Cal Newport Cal has lots of stuff on this. That’s fantastic. Allison, if people want to follow you or find you, where can they track you down? Sure. Yeah. Find me on LinkedIn, Allison Giddens and I’m with Wintech in Kennesaw. So if you’re looking, if there are a bunch of Allison Giddens, that’s, that’s me. There you go. And I’ll have it in the show notes as well. So people can find you there. So appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Thanks for having me. All right. See you. Bye.