In this episode, Andrew McEntyre and I dug into Charles Duhigg’s book “The Power of Habit“.
You can find Andrew’s “Deep in the Woods” show here, or follow him on Instagram here.
You can listen to the episode here:
Full Transcript:
Mickey Mellen (00:01.858)
This process within our brains is a three-step loop. First, there’s a cue, a trigger that tells your brain to go into automatic mode and which habits to use. Then there’s the routine, which can be physical or mental or emotional. Finally, there’s a reward, which helps your brain figure out if this particular habit is worth remembering for the future. That was just a little bit from Charles Duhigg’s famous book, The Power of Habit, and here to discuss today is Andrew McEntyre. So Andrew, welcome to the show.
Andrew McEntyre (00:24.704)
Hey, thank you. I appreciate you’d let me be a part of this.
Mickey Mellen (00:27.084)
Yeah, for sure. And I thank you for suggesting this book. It’s been one I read years ago and I needed to dig back into. This is good excuse to do that. So why’d you pick it? Why The Power of Habit?
Andrew McEntyre (00:38.198)
So I originally read this book about five years ago. The first connection I had to it was through education. So I’m a special education teacher. And in that book, there’s a lot of elements that are very close to behaviorism. I work with students who typically have developmental disabilities like autism or intellectual disabilities. So what you just read there was very close to some of those key elements from behaviorism. B.F. Skinner.
who came up with the idea of behaviorism through experimental treatments with like, almost like Pavlov’s dog and some of those things, came up with the formula SRR, which is stimulus response and then reinforcement. And so what you mentioned a second ago with the cue routine and reward are very similar to that same concept. It’s the idea that whatever happens before and after behavior will influence that behavior itself. And so when I read that book, that was the lens I was looking at.
Mickey Mellen (01:12.215)
Okay, yep.
Mickey Mellen (01:26.51)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew McEntyre (01:35.789)
through was how I could connect that over to my role as a teacher. Could I use this to help my students? At the time, I was also supporting other teachers. Could I help them also in their classroom? So that was the initial connection to the book. And then the very first chapter in the book, it’s about a man called Eugene Polly who had a brain damage that occurred from viral encephalitis.
And when that occurred, he lost a lot of memories and he had a lot of those reasoning skills to be able to function throughout his day. But what they were able to realize is that his routines and his habits were still existing and he was able to even learn new routines and habits, even with that brain damage. So what I took away from that was many of my own students have struggles with cognitive impairments. And I was noticing some of those same things that they…
they are able to learn a lot of habits throughout their day with that constant repetition. So that information about that cue, the routine and reward really, it really connected to my own teaching. So that was the initial idea of what this book brought to me.
Mickey Mellen (02:41.57)
Gotcha, that’s awesome. So do you very specifically do the Q routine reward with your students like, alright, let’s talk about the Q. What is the Q that’s gonna matter? Like you walk them through very deliberately, I assume.
Andrew McEntyre (02:50.7)
I would say that I don’t really teach my students right now. I’m working with preschoolers. I don’t go through and teach them like the logistical side of it, but we do definitely use these aspects. So for example, a lot of my students who are three to four year olds are working on TOLA training. And so we may go in through that process and we use picture cues. And so that cue might be to point at a certain picture to get them to follow a certain response. And
Mickey Mellen (02:55.69)
Okay, gotcha.
Mickey Mellen (03:06.051)
Okay.
Andrew McEntyre (03:17.226)
The goal of that is to kind of phase out or fade those prompts to where they’re doing that routine on their own. But at first, you may have to actually point to that picture of what you want them to do to have them to build that spark of that behavior. And then after that behavior occurs is when you do the follow-up, which is like a praise or a reinforcement. that might, in some more intensive settings, that usually is like a reward that could be like a skittle or an Like you might think of toilet training, but for…
Mickey Mellen (03:44.001)
Gotcha, right
Andrew McEntyre (03:45.975)
For me, I’ve really found that even praise, like making a big deal out of something, it really makes that same reinforcement or reward happen. So I definitely do use this daily and we build these into where it becomes more independent and they’re doing it on their
Mickey Mellen (03:59.65)
Gotcha. Did it affect your behavior in any way? Did you change any of your habits or how you construct habits just in your personal life?
Andrew McEntyre (04:05.036)
Yeah, I would say so. And one thing, one of the elements within this book that he brings up is something called Keystone Habits. And what that really is, is like a domino effect. So it’s like one big habit that ends up creating other habits to occur. And so for my own life, there was a certain habit, I think, that did that, and was walking. A few years ago, my work did one of those silly challenges I like to do where you have to…
keep track of who’s going to walk the most using like a, you know, your smartwatch or whatever that may be. And for whatever reason, it sparked this daily habits. Every day after I ate supper, was, I took my dog for a walk. And so it was almost became like that trigger, a cue was I finished supper. I look at my dog and say, okay, my dog’s looking at me. I want to go for that walk. Let’s go do it. And then the, behavior was that walk. And then when I came back, the reinforcement was almost just that benefit of
Mickey Mellen (04:51.438)
Nice.
Andrew McEntyre (05:00.608)
being able to feel good about being out there. At the time, I was dealing with some of my own mental stress of work and various things. so taking that walk had other benefits. It ended up making where like it kind of got some of those work stressors released by getting outside and walking. Other habits that formed after that were I started paying attention to other elements, like the data from my phone.
I was trying to outperform that every day. And then by looking at that data, I started looking at other things like, you know, how well am I eating or other things that where I started eating better. I just felt better in general, which then led over to taking more hikes and ultimately started a podcast around it called deep in the woods, which is what really that one action of walking led to all of those other steps. So.
Mickey Mellen (05:30.574)
Okay.
Mickey Mellen (05:49.454)
Mm-hmm.
Mickey Mellen (05:53.942)
That’s awesome Yeah, that’s quite a difference it made. Yeah, yeah one thing it did for me and I’m not sure this is good or bad But I’ve shared before maybe I’m here maybe I’m gonna blog wherever that I’m not a big goal setter I’m more of a big habit setter like I want to just have routines like I mentioned you before the call you I work out every morning with some of our mutual friends and I don’t really have a goal to working out other than just to consistently do it and Drive that habit and this kind of sort of instilled that in me that that’s okay because there’s sometimes you hear from some folks that that’s okay and others like no you got a big goals and I certainly have some goals, but
I found that just good habits, and like you said, habits can lead to other habits can be a great thing, can be a good way to go through life.
Andrew McEntyre (06:29.932)
Yeah, I agree. I think for whether it’s, you know, through your job or through your personal life, think habits can be a thing to add more to your life. also, as it mentions in the book, it can remove behaviors that you don’t want to. So I think that’s a part of it also. Like one example, I think it may be in this book. also read, I don’t know if you’ve heard of tiny habits and atomic habits. There’s a series that came out back to back to back. Yeah. And I read all of them, but they’re all very similar to the same.
Mickey Mellen (06:44.515)
Mm-hmm.
Mickey Mellen (06:52.845)
Yep. Oh yeah, a whole bunch. Yeah. Yep.
Andrew McEntyre (06:58.506)
But I think one of the mentions like this donut, so this button that has a donut. if you’re sitting at your desk and this button came down that was kind of alarm that went off that said free donut, you know, and you push that every time you hit it, a donut would pop out, you know. And so by doing that, you would get the donut, you would eat it, and then it would fulfill this craving, this desire that was able to go through that process. So the reward would be the sweet, sugary treat.
but the trigger would be that button. And so the same thing of adding a trigger or to a cue or a prompt is the same thing. You can take that away as well. And so what I learned was I was a heavy soda drinker. And so I was drinking Dr. Pepper’s all the time. And I realized like, why can’t I stop? And the reason was because they were available and they were always around. And so one thing I also learned from these books was removing that thing from being accessible was also a great piece of being able to.
get rid of behaviors that I don’t want also.
Mickey Mellen (07:57.646)
I think that’s probably the easiest way to start doing that too. It’s just yeah stop stop buying them, you know, which is Easier said than done sometimes but yeah, certainly be a great way to do it. Another thing I liked in here They talked about Tony Dungey talked a little bit. He said Champions don’t do extraordinary things. They do ordinary things, but they do them without thinking too fast for the other team to react They follow the habits they’ve learned and then I also picked up from another podcast I listened to called the long and the short of it They said the point of practice and running all these drills and studying over and over again. It’s on game day My only job is to react
Andrew McEntyre (08:01.78)
Yes, right? I know, right?
Andrew McEntyre (08:27.168)
Yeah, yeah.
Mickey Mellen (08:27.278)
So I kinda like that where you build the habits so your only job is to react. You don’t have to think about what to do, who to block, where to run. It’s just gonna happen automatically. You just have to be there to react because you’ve done the habits, if you’ve done the work ahead of time.
Andrew McEntyre (08:38.282)
Yeah, I think that word you mentioned there is really the key to that automatic piece. I whether it was from this or another, but I heard like a statistic that said 45 % of our behaviors are automatic behaviors that come from habits. so throughout what we do when we pick up our, when we get up in the morning and we grab our toothbrush and the order we do it, the order we make our coffee, all of those things are so automatic that they are just part of those simple routines. And one thing being thrown off and that, that, that, that, that, that’s
Mickey Mellen (08:41.592)
Mm-hmm.
Mickey Mellen (08:49.709)
Wow, okay.
Mickey Mellen (08:56.524)
Hmm. Yeah. Okay. That’s true.
Andrew McEntyre (09:07.724)
strategy, whatever it is that in the morning, that routine aspect, if one of those things is thrown off, it can throw off the rest of the cycle. But you’re right, I think practicing, making things automatic and consistent for my students, for myself, my family, I think even the way that my day works sometimes, like the way when I get home, all of that is definitely automatic behaviors.
Mickey Mellen (09:27.202)
Yeah, and now a lot of what you talked about I think is truly habits the habit of brushing your teeth and you do it this way and that way I do wonder if Tony’s thing is not really habits those that and correct me I mean we can poke at this a little bit because doesn’t seem like a habit it seems like practicing a lot and focusing on certain drills But I see that it’s slightly different than a habit. I don’t know. How do you see that? You see a difference there? You see what I’m trying to say?
Andrew McEntyre (09:46.432)
Yeah, mean, I think that’s because you’re talking about like already picking up on intuitive cues almost like because like
Mickey Mellen (09:52.482)
Right. Is it a habit you do routinely without thinking or is it something we’re going to go practice this drill 20 times, which is great to do, but is that really the same as a habit? And I don’t know. Yeah.
Andrew McEntyre (10:00.374)
I think it’s a little different. because I think of, like you mentioned in football, you’re like training the brain to becoming hyper aware of scenarios so that you don’t have to reason or write down the steps that you need. Like you said, the automatic piece, it happens. So I don’t know if you would classify that as a habit, but it definitely picks it up into that automatic behavior piece where your brain doesn’t have to process it and make decisions.
because I think that’s the key piece is that if you’re, there are other parts of your brain that are really good and need to be making decisions, but you don’t want that to be for every single action that you do. You want some things to be automatic. And so the things that you know are important that you want to get done correct every time. You want that thing to be the automatic brain, but you want the other part where the important decisions that come up to not be impacted by that other part. So.
Mickey Mellen (10:36.29)
Right.
Mickey Mellen (10:55.182)
It’s maybe a little bit like so the book I did with our friend Tim on here was thinking fast and slow and I think it almost ties into that where you want the the Slow thinking that the processing all that to happen automatically from habits and that way the fast part of your brain the fast decision-making just happens because you just Know what’s going on reminds me a little bit too. I’ve been studying memory palaces a lot lately just for memorizing facts and figures and stuff It’s interesting concept but part of it is you should know your palace that you put things in down pat You shouldn’t be thinking about that. You should just
Andrew McEntyre (10:59.574)
Mm-hmm.
Mickey Mellen (11:22.318)
Learn that make it a habit where it’s just automatic and that way when you’re trying to put you facts and figures into it you can focus on the facts and figures and not be focusing on the framework around it which It’s not unlike football I think where you do all the hard work to get all that figured out and then when it’s time to go you can just focus on what’s happening you know on the field at that moment and I’m not I think what I’m seeing that pop up more and more in life for you if you can get the frameworks and the basics memorized have it done just Automatic it makes things go much easier because you can focus all your energy on the parts that cannot be automatic, you know
Andrew McEntyre (11:51.329)
Yeah, what that makes me think of is, you know, in a school setting, we talk about safety a lot, especially in regard to like school shootings, like we have all the drills and you have fire drills and so forth. But I remember in our safety briefings that we have probably once a month, one thing they always say is we want the core parts of the procedures down. Like we want, you know, when this happens, when the crisis occurs, we want everyone to know these steps, right? Because there’s going to come a part in this where there’s going to be variables that happen. Like let’s say it’s a fire and this door is blocked.
Mickey Mellen (11:57.932)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew McEntyre (12:20.104)
or let’s say it’s a shooter and you don’t know if they’re outside or inside the building. All of those other questions that become more important, you don’t want to have to start breaking down the small steps or the small, the parts that should be intuitive. You don’t want to have to break that down. You want to really stop and be able to make the priority decisions. So that’s kind of, it’s what it reminds me of there. So.
Mickey Mellen (12:37.922)
Yep. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, very good example. I like that. Yeah, very similar. Another piece I’ve seen in other books before. A lot of you may have heard before, but I love the story of Target. I sort of hate the story of Target, but it’s fascinating where I’ll kind of read the quote from the book. In the end, Target’s analysis worked so well that it marketed to a pregnant teenage girl who hadn’t yet told her family about her situation. Target sent her baby-related coupons, prompting her father to pay the local Target manager an angry visit. Quote, she’s still in high school. Are you going to encourage her to get pregnant?
Andrew McEntyre (12:48.747)
Yeah.
Mickey Mellen (13:05.623)
When the truth came out, was the abashed father’s turn to apologize. And so it’s just a note that yeah, our habits and our actions can be almost so automatic that we don’t even realize what we’re doing, but others may see it around us. guess others with lot of data, that’s maybe, but I even our friends and family may see it to a degree.
Andrew McEntyre (13:21.548)
Yeah, I think the data piece that you’re talking about is really important with a business because in the book he does talk a lot about how Keystone habits are impacting businesses. And one example I will say is I take my dog to track your supply to use their little bath stations. And so they have this place where you can take them and it’s $10, you can give them a bath. And when you go to ring up, they do the thing like they ask you about your rewards card. Well, the last time I went, I noticed on their computer screen,
Mickey Mellen (13:36.033)
Okay, nice.
Mickey Mellen (13:40.984)
Okay.
Andrew McEntyre (13:49.993)
It said, did you ask the customer about the rewards card? And it said yes or no. Like they had to actually click that button before they did it. So that was the habit. That was the trigger for them to be able to develop that habit. Well, for me, I only go there for one reason and that’s just to get my dog a bath. Well, recently we needed to get a gate for our back fence. And the first place that came to my brain was tractor supply.
Mickey Mellen (13:56.289)
Okay.
Mickey Mellen (14:09.453)
Mm-hmm.
Mickey Mellen (14:18.19)
Right, yeah.
Andrew McEntyre (14:18.316)
I could have went anywhere else, but if something about the fact that they keep that name, that recognition in my head because they send emails out and I get coupons because I do, I’m a rewards member to get that dog bath. But it was enough that worked for me to be able to go in a ball to $150 gate for my promo backyard. So it did its job just like Target did with trying to track and individualize customers.
Mickey Mellen (14:30.104)
Mm-hmm.
Mickey Mellen (14:41.24)
Yep, I like that. Very cool. One more piece here as we’re starting to wrap up a little bit. I like this thought. This is one I hadn’t really considered before. I like things that are obvious, but I’m like, I never really thought of that before, about habits occurring without our permission. So the quote from the book said, habits are powerful but delicate. They can emerge outside our consciousness or can be deliberately designed. They often occur without our permission, but can be reshaped by fiddling with their parts. They shape our lives far more than we realize. They are so strong. In fact, they cause our brains to cling to them at the exclusion of all else, including common sense.
And so yeah, I’ve never really thought about that. Like we talked here about how you shape your habits and you have the cues and all that stuff, but we all have a ton of habits that we’ve not shaped. They’re just habits we’ve developed. And I think that’s perhaps the best opportunity we have is to look at all the habits we have automatically and think, if I thought about this habit, could I tweak it and make it more efficient or more pleasurable or, you know, less work or something to make it better just because it’s happened without our permission, without us even thinking about it.
Andrew McEntyre (15:34.893)
I think that as I was thinking about this interview, one of the things that kept coming to my mind was awareness. Like thinking about habits brings up awareness of so many things. And I think what you’re saying there is really by being aware of how we are impacted by so many things in our environment that really does, it makes us to become aware of these pieces that do influence our habits. Because when we think of students as teachers, we know we can’t directly change behaviors.
Mickey Mellen (15:40.782)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew McEntyre (16:02.912)
Right, because that piece is so intangible. It’s like really so much part of the student, you know, that you can’t really just say do something different and then it becomes different. But you can impact the environment. Like that’s why those cues that we place in their environment, that the beginning of a behavior and afterwards do have such a big impact in that developing that behavior because it really does, it’s the environmental aspects that really change the way we behave. So.
Mickey Mellen (16:27.918)
Yep, well said, I like that, that’s a great point. Any other highlights from the book you wanted to cover before we finish up?
Andrew McEntyre (16:34.668)
The only other thing I was thinking about was there’s a story and this is kind of a business related to but that made me it reminded me of how much like a like that Keystone habit can impact organizations to was I think the company is Alcoa but Paul O’Neill and so when he came into the company he was really noticing there’s a lot of safety concerns and one of the things I thought was really neat was how he decided one thing
Mickey Mellen (16:52.15)
Okay, yeah, with Paul O’Neill, yeah.
Andrew McEntyre (17:03.562)
was that anytime anyone saw a safety issue at all, he wanted to come straight to him, right? That the communication aspects, like not just went to up to this one level above or the next manager, it had to go from the worker all the way to the CEO because he wanted to address that. So that one behavior, one habit change impacted the communication. They were learning how to be more efficient with how communication worked. It impacted the morale of the company because the employees were realizing.
that the company really wanted them to be safe. But so that story really stuck out to me that there’s this one decision to be able to look at the safety really impacted so many areas like a domino effect. And so that was definitely another area that I thought would be important to share because it’s just one decision and it really shows the ripple effect of what can occur.
Mickey Mellen (17:54.722)
Yeah, like that. I think that’s the one, I remember correctly, that he came in and said, we’re going to have zero injuries. And people are like, what are you talking about? Like, we should lower it some, but zero is a little crazy talk. that’s what he went for, and that’s what he eventually got, because that became the focus of what they did versus some are OK, if we need to be efficient. He said, no, no, we’re just, yeah, zero is the goal. And it’s a whole different approach. It again, shapes how people work and behave, and I’m sure change some habits on how lax they get about certain things and sort of force that change upon people without directly changing their habits, but just saying.
Andrew McEntyre (17:59.253)
Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Andrew McEntyre (18:11.099)
Yeah.
Andrew McEntyre (18:15.425)
Yeah.
Mickey Mellen (18:21.794)
to get this goal, gonna have to change some habits to make it happen, so.
Andrew McEntyre (18:24.534)
Yeah. And their profits went up too, which they didn’t expect.
Mickey Mellen (18:27.758)
Right, yeah, that was, wouldn’t expect, would think profits would get hurt because of that a little bit. Like we’re be a little bit less efficient, but be safe. It’s a good trade off, we’ll lose some money, but win-win, so yeah. Kudos to him for that, so awesome. Well, Andrew, this has been fantastic. I appreciate you coming on. How can people track you down online?
Andrew McEntyre (18:32.554)
Yeah.
Andrew McEntyre (18:36.81)
Yeah. Yep.
Andrew McEntyre (18:44.012)
So my podcast is Deep in the Woods. You can find it on any podcast place like Apple Podcast. I also share some things on Instagram. My podcast, what makes it unique is that we take a guest out on a walk. So they find a place that they find to be significant. And they pick one word that they think is important to them also. So from your friend Tim, I know he won’t mind me calling him out here. He picked the word belonging. yeah. And we went over to Kennesaw Mountain.
Mickey Mellen (19:07.118)
Okay, that tracks.
Andrew McEntyre (19:13.812)
over here in Kennesaw, Georgia. And we spent about an hour or so walking and as we walked, we recorded at the same time. And we talk about the word belonging and how all of that connects to what’s important to the guest and to myself as well, because we both were really discussing education and how that applies to that. But there’s all kinds of words. even have talked about walking, inclusion. I’ve even talked about genetics. So it really
Mickey Mellen (19:31.32)
Yeah, awesome.
Mickey Mellen (19:38.328)
Hmm, wow.
Andrew McEntyre (19:39.824)
Every podcast is a little different. So you could check it out on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And if you look at my Instagram, you can also see pictures of the places that we go to.
Mickey Mellen (19:49.026)
Awesome, very cool. I’ll put links to all that stuff in the show notes so y’all can check it out. So cool. Appreciate it, Andrew. This is great. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. See ya.
Andrew McEntyre (19:52.14)
All right, thank you. All right, appreciate the media part.
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