In this episode, Peter Shepherd and I dug into Michael Stanier’s book “The Coaching Habit“.
You can find Peter’s website at HumanPeriscope.com or check out “The Long and The Short Of It” podcast here.
You can listen to the episode here:
Full Transcript:
Mickey Mellen
This is why, in a nutshell, advice is overrated. I can tell you something and it’s got a limited chance of making its way into your brain’s hippocampus, the region that encodes memory. If I can ask you a question and you generate the answer yourself, the odds increase substantially. So that was just a little bit from Michael Stanger’s book, The Coaching Habit, which I’ve heard Peter Shepard recommend numerous times on his podcast. So here to discuss it today is Peter Shepherd. So Pete, welcome to the show.
Peter Shepherd (00:25)
Thanks for having me, Mickey. Pleasure to be here.
Mickey Mellen (00:27)
Yeah, excited to chat with you about this mostly because I know you’re excited to talk about this. Yeah, as you said, this is one of your favorite books. So you say, I think you said you recommend this book more than any other. So why is that?
Peter Shepherd (00:37)
It’s true. I mean, you sent me this beautiful list of so many great books to pick and talk about. the one I thought of was the one that I recommend the most because that would be most useful for us to have a conversation. And the book that I recommend the most is The Coaching Habit. The reason for that is, I mean, I do a bunch of coaching and do a bunch of work in leadership development. And it’s the book I recommend because it’s so almost obnoxiously practical and simple that I find
people who maybe don’t necessarily want to or enjoy spending hours reading books and digesting information to try and make themselves a better leader, for example, or they don’t have the time or the luxury. It’s like, here’s a book, there’s seven questions. It’s so simple. You could probably read it in an afternoon. You could skip a few pages and still get the crux of it. And so I like it because it’s just so accessible and so practical and useful.
Mickey Mellen (01:29)
Gotcha, yeah love that. We were talking before the show here about podcasts that just kind of get in and get out and get to the point. And this book I think is a great example of that. Yeah, was looking, the audible is three hours and three minutes, so reading it would be roughly the same, which is tiny, it’s awesome. That’s how books should be, so yeah.
Peter Shepherd (01:37)
I totally agree.
I agree. And it’s sort of centered around like seven key questions. And I read the book and I many, many times I recommend it. even of those seven, I think you could probably distill it to like, even if you just took away two or three questions, like even if you took 90 minutes of the three hour audio book, I still reckon you would get a lot out of it. So that’s why I love it.
Mickey Mellen (01:58)
Right.
Yep.
Gotcha. Love that. So before we get into that too much, I think there’s always a lot of confusion about coaching versus consulting and that kind of stuff. And this is the coaching habits. What does coaching mean relative to consulting and other things you could do?
Peter Shepherd (02:15)
That’s a great point. think in the quote that you mentioned, maybe the answer lies, which is this idea of advice versus question asking. think consultants are often brought on board to analyze, do research, maybe do some form of coaching, but ultimately make a recommendation and provide advice to an organization, to an individual, to a team. Coaching very deliberately kind of maintains this posture of the person I’m talking to has the answer.
I don’t need to give advice. I need you to ask them questions and help them discover that answer themselves that I believe is already inside their brain somewhere. So it’s sort of like advice versus question asking is the oversimplified difference I see between those two, which I think Michael Bungastan you would agree.
Mickey Mellen (02:58)
Yeah, I would think so too. in your life, tell me how that shakes out because your company’s human periscope where you do coaching. I know you from the Alt-MBA, which is no longer in existence. So you’re not really doing that anymore. And then of course you host long and the short of it podcasts with Jen. So your life is split a lot of different ways. Is coaching still like the vast majority of what you do is 90 % coaching? Are you in any other areas that I didn’t cover there?
Peter Shepherd (03:18)
No, it’s, it’s, it’s most of what I do, but I think, I think about coaching maybe in a, in a, in a slightly different way, which I think is why this book really resonates because I think the posture of a coach, this idea of asking questions and holding space and trying to create the conditions for someone else to get a learning moment. That is also the same skillset. I think that’s required for a really great facilitator of a leadership development program. And so I could also say that I am a facilitator of leadership development programs because I am, but I think saying that.
taking on board a coaching post, that kind of covers that too. So I work with teams and individuals and organizations to do essentially leadership development. How do we take a leader or a group of leaders or a group of executives or a executives and try and make them better, try and make them more effective and more generous and more human-centered in the way they lead. The general philosophy I have for doing that is coaching. And so that could look like a very specific type of coaching, like one-on-one sort of 60 minute asking questions, kind of holding space, the traditional thing we think of when we think of coaching.
But I do think of facilitating a full day offsite as a form of coaching too. So I hope that answers your question.
Mickey Mellen (04:24)
It does, yeah. I guess break that down a little bit further, because on your podcast with Jen, the stories you tell are almost all from the group coaching things. Is that the majority of what you do, or is that just where the best stories come out? Okay.
Peter Shepherd (04:34)
That’s a good question. I think it’s a bit of both. Over the
years, I’ve kind of I’ve oscillated between like doing, you know, I don’t know, 70 % one on one and 30 % group and probably now more so it’s 80 % group and 20 % one on one. I deliberately don’t take on more than 10 one on one clients at a time because I find if I do take on too many, one on one can be, I think really hard to maintain a big book off because you end up kind of losing threads of who’s who and what’s what.
Mickey Mellen (04:58)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Shepherd (05:01)
And so I’ve sort of capped myself on the one-on-one and truthfully, I just, get a lot of energy from working with groups cause I like the different dynamics at play. So over the years, I’ve kind of moved more into group kind of team based coaching and facilitation just firstly, cause I enjoy it. And secondly, cause I think, I think there’s some value there to be offered.
Mickey Mellen (05:21)
Yeah, gotcha. That makes sense. So you mentioned there’s the seven questions in the book. I don’t think we need to dig into all seven, but you mentioned just a few of them could probably distill things down. So let’s dig into a few of your favorites. So what are some of your favorite questions from the book that you like to ask?
Peter Shepherd (05:35)
Totally. think that, I mean, I’ve got my like slight iterations of these, but I want to make sure I get the language right based on the, based on how Michael Bungay frames them. But I think it’s the first three that are like the most helpful. think the first one is, I think he, well, I know, cause I’ve got it in front of me. He calls it the kickstart question, but the question is essentially what’s on your mind. And I think that’s such a brilliant question to start a coaching conversation, but kind of any conversation. If you’re, know, if you’re about a leader in an organization doing a bunch of one-on-one check-ins with their team member.
Mickey Mellen (05:53)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Shepherd (06:04)
I think a really useful way to start that one-on-one conversation is tell me what’s on your mind. You know, like just to start from a place of, me not assume I know what’s going on for you, Mickey. Let me ask you to tell me what’s on your mind. So that first question I think is so critical to many conversations. The second one, just literally in order, the or question, AWE is, and what else? And his assertion in the book is that usually the first thing out of people’s head when they answer that first question is.
Mickey Mellen (06:09)
Yeah.
Peter Shepherd (06:31)
not necessarily the main thing that’s on their mind. So to encourage you to dig a little bit deeper, this idea of asking, okay, and what else? Tell me what else? Tell me what else is on your mind? I think allows you to go that layer deeper to find out maybe a little more about what’s going on. And then the third question, which I think fits all of it, fits both of those and could come in that order is what’s the real challenge here for you? Now I sometimes reframe that as like, what’s the hard part for you right now? Or where do you feel stuck right now? There’s a bunch of
sort of different ways I think you can frame it. And I like to experiment with framing things differently. Ultimately, I love that question because I think it’s pretty rare that we’re actually asked, tell me what’s the current challenge for you right now, Mickey. And I like it because often people go with a surface level answer at the start and you can ask it again and again. Okay, so in that context though, but what’s the real challenge? And eventually if you ask it two or three times, a bit like the and what else question, you get to a place of going,
Here it is, like after 10 minutes maybe, we’ve actually uncovered the number one thing we need to talk about. So now let’s talk about that.
Mickey Mellen (07:37)
Yeah, it reminds me sort of the five whys. I don’t know if you guys have talked about that on your show before, but I love the five whys. We use a good bit, so we’re a marketing agency, we use that a lot with clients. Like, what are you here for today? Well, we want a new website. Why do you want a new website? Well, we want to get more sales. Why do you want more sales? And you just kind of keep digging deeper until you get to the real core of what’s going on, and it seems very similar to that. Yeah.
Peter Shepherd (07:53)
Totally agree. It’s the same philosophy
and there are different schools of thought that in coaching conversations in particular, some people push back on why questions as being hard to answer. If you’re, if you’re on the receiving end of, too many white questions in a one-on-one context in particular, can like, it can kind of become a little bit overwhelming to answer. And so I like the idea of asking, so what’s the real challenge and what’s the real challenge, which is essentially sort of saying why multiple times, like you said,
but it feels easier to answer as the recipient, I think.
Mickey Mellen (08:27)
Gotcha, yeah that makes sense. So how do you handle that in a group setting then? If you’re those questions, you going around each person or is it… I imagine you try to make sure everyone has a voice because when you ask that question I’m guessing someone will step up and that same person will step up and you got to kind of shush them. So how do you handle that in a group of a handful of folks?
Peter Shepherd (08:43)
this is the beauty of facilitating groups. I love this. This is like, there’s so many different techniques and ways, you know, a really simple one is to have everyone just like write the answer down to the question first without anyone else sharing. And then now that we will answer it on our paper, then we have a chance to all share an answer to that question. Because you want to avoid someone going, this is the number one challenge for this group. And then everyone kind of falls in line and goes, yeah, whatever what he said, because I don’t want to speak up and challenge that. So it’s about encouraging to your point, how do you get
Mickey Mellen (09:06)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Shepherd (09:12)
How do you encourage everyone to have a voice? There are one way, like one way to do that is to get everyone to write it down, like I mentioned. Another way I really like to leverage is this idea of, I don’t know if you’ve heard this like mental model of move up, move up. It’s a, yeah, it’s a facilitation, I guess technique, but maybe just like a mental model that I really love. And the idea is you say to a group, like, we’re going to practice move up, move up. What that means is if you’re the kind of person that always speaks first.
Mickey Mellen (09:17)
Gotcha.
I have not, no.
Peter Shepherd (09:39)
maybe you’re a little extroverted, maybe you’re a little enthusiastic. I want you to move up into a position of listening. And if you’re the kind of person that likes to sit back and maybe just wait and let other people speak, I want you to move up into a position of speaking. And so both is just as big a stretch. You know, the introvert that has to speak up feels nervous, but the extrovert that is not able to speak first is like super uncomfortable. And so it’s like, we’re all stretching here. And hopefully that creates the conditions for everyone to have a chance to speak.
Mickey Mellen (10:08)
That seems like great advice, but how do you make that actually happen? Because I suspect the introvert will say, I’m good. Like they’re comfortable being an introvert. Is this something that happens after you’ve had a session multiple times to build that trust or what’s the component here?
Peter Shepherd (10:20)
funny you said I’ve actually never experienced people saying, No, I don’t want to. So maybe there’s maybe there’s an element of I’m like racking my brain. It’s not necessarily the first thing you do out of the out of the gates. So I think you’re right. There’s there’s some trust and some psychological safety that gets built in the pre the preamble to that particular question that makes it more likely that they’re going to speak up and or maybe
Mickey Mellen (10:24)
Okay, good.
Peter Shepherd (10:47)
just by having an external person like me, people often feel more comfortable even though they might be introverted speaking up in front of a group. I don’t know. I’ve actually not experienced that before.
Mickey Mellen (10:54)
Okay.
Yeah. And again, that’s why I’ve read this book and why I’m having this conversation. So I’m not a coach. I’d like to get into coaching at some point. So I’m reading stuff like this learning to sort of prime myself for it. But that’s why I’ll also ask perhaps silly questions like that that don’t really apply, but they seem from the outside, but until I get in the trenches there, it’s going to be different. So yeah. Yeah.
Peter Shepherd (11:12)
I think it’s a great question. And
I think the, the, the, the reason again, I love this book actually speaks to what you just said, which is, know, so many people say so many things about coaching and it’s kind of become this nebulous term in a way. And I like the idea that Michael Bungay Stanyard talks about, which is that anyone can have a coaching conversation. You don’t need to go and take this, you know, coaching course to, ask curious questions. Essentially what we’re doing here is encouraging you to ask
Mickey Mellen (11:27)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Shepherd (11:41)
questions and that’s like a, you know, a posture or a mindset that anyone can adopt. And he kind of talks about it as like it’s democratizing coaching conversations rather than saving them for these elite few that maybe think they’re qualified. It’s actually like, anyone can ask a question like, Mickey, what’s the current challenge you have right now? That’s, that’s really just permission to ask a question.
Mickey Mellen (12:03)
That’s a good point about, yeah, people being able to be curious all the time. I was trying to remember where it was. It might have been on your show. It seems like something Jen would say, but is curiosity selfish? was either her or Monica Guzman. I can’t remember which one now. But being curious can be seen as, I want to just learn everything for myself and become smarter and better. And it’s a little selfish, but it can be spun into, curiosity is empathy, is showing that you really care about the other person. think curiosity is probably such a huge part of coaching to really under.
unpack those questions I guess instead of just saying tell me more tell me more if you can give more specific tell me more about that piece I just heard your curiosity driving in there would probably work wonders in a coaching situation.
Peter Shepherd (12:43)
For sure, I think that’s a great point. It’s curiosity in service of the other person. I’m not just trying to extract information out of you. I’m trying to help you get clarity in that thing you’re talking about.
Mickey Mellen (12:48)
There you go, well said.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so another quote from the book I like there’s a number of just little quotes I want to pull in here to get your thoughts on I wonder if you’ve faced this one before so we talked about you know coaching in how that’s different from you Other other pieces it’s he says quote stop offering advice with a question mark attached that doesn’t count as asking questions That’s where people I guess that’s a thing of like Pete. Here’s what I think you should do Do you agree like it’s a question, but it’s not really a question. Is that something you’ve seen come up?
Peter Shepherd (13:13)
No
Yeah, 100%.
Totally, totally agree. And when I run workshops to try and help leaders be more coach like, this is like often a reflection of, I was tasked with asking a curious question. And I felt myself wanting to make a statement with a question mark on the end. because, and I think it usually comes from a great place, which is I want to help this person. And so when someone says to me, here’s a challenge I have, I kind of default to like, I think I know how to help you and solve that challenge. Here’s some advice.
Mickey Mellen (13:36)
You
Mm-hmm.
Peter Shepherd (13:52)
But if I’ve been instructed to be more coach like, it’s almost like halfway through the advice giving you go, wait, this needs to be a question. So let me just stick a question mark on. So we kind of got to fight that as much as possible. And I think it’s important to say not, not fight it forever. The point is not to never tell anyone what you think. I don’t think the point is to just maybe default to look, I have some thoughts. I have some ideas. I’ve even got a suggestion or two, but first I’d love to know.
Mickey Mellen (13:59)
You
Other
Peter Shepherd (14:19)
how do you think we should solve this problem? Or what would you do in this situation? Or what is the challenge that you’re trying to solve that we could try and workshop together? And then eventually at the right time, you can still share ideas and suggestions, I think.
Mickey Mellen (14:30)
Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is yeah, do you ever get to that point? And I think it makes sense when you do and that’s something I’m trying to do more with my team. I’m so big on like, I’m gonna take care of that for them to help them out and I’m learning that that’s not helping them. Helping them is letting them learn to deal with themselves. But of course there’s still the time where what do you think you should do? How do you think you should handle that? And like, okay, we’re not getting there. Here’s what I think you should do. And it’s yeah, it’s finding that line though of not just jumping immediately into go do this, cause that’s not really in service of them.
Peter Shepherd (14:56)
Absolutely agree. I think you nailed it as you know, as a leader, it’s about giving them the opportunity to to share and sometimes maybe they’re overwhelmed. Maybe they’re stuck. Maybe they just genuinely want some direction. It’ll get to the point where they go, you know what, Mickey, I don’t know, I just need you to tell me what to do. And you go, okay, cool. Here’s where I think we should go.
Mickey Mellen (15:11)
Right, yep. Yeah, that leads to another quote from the book too that I like. He says, if this were a haiku rather than a book, it would read, tell less and ask more. Your advice is not as good as you think it is. So there’s that too where, yeah, you may want to give the advice, but it’s got to be difficult because I don’t know about all the companies you work with, but I imagine they come from very different places. You’re not going to be an expert in all these different industries and stuff. And so you may have advice, but it may…
Maybe bad. Have you had experiences there where you’ve slipped into, I’m just going to give some advice here and then it turns out like maybe I should have just kept asking questions because that was way off the mark.
Peter Shepherd (15:42)
Absolutely. I mean, I think this is like the challenge and the constant practice of being a facilitator, a leader, whatever you want to call it. And so the way I try and frame it now is less about here’s some advice, but actually more like here’s an observation from another company. I was running this and the podcast I have with Jen has been a really good practice at helping me do this. like, I had this session last week with this particular group of people. Here’s something I noticed.
Mickey Mellen (16:06)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Shepherd (16:07)
Now that
may be relevant to you, it may not, but I just want to share it as like a story or an anecdote to see if that maybe lands or helps in some way. So it’s almost like sharing observations as opposed to giving advice. That’s how I think about the distinction.
Mickey Mellen (16:20)
Yeah,
I can see that. Yeah, that brings two thoughts to mind. One is back to Blair Ends. We talked a little bit before the call and some of his brilliant stuff. He’s the two Bob’s podcast among other things. But he says, if someone says to you, tell me why I should buy from you. He says, don’t just try to sell yourself. Just kind of share stories and anecdotes of what you’ve done for others and how it’s worked out and just kind of kind of tell stories there. The other thing that makes me think makes me think of is I’ve been a daily blogger now for four or five years.
modeling after Seth because of his constant goading indirectly to me to do that. And I think it’s been fantastic. It’s opened my eyes to see the world through that lens of looking for ideas to write about. And I feel like your podcast with Jen has probably opened your eyes to think of stories you can tell and makes you probably even in the moment at this point, you’ve done so many episodes, you’ve done it for what five years or something now that you’re probably in the coaching session, like, my gosh, I got to remember this big thing for Jen next week because this is such a great little observation to share is that.
Peter Shepherd (17:10)
For
sure. It actually, happens in both ways. One is, oh, I need to remember this for Jen. And then two is when I’m recording with Jen, I’m like, oh, I need to remember this to tell him my next workshop. You know, it happens both ways. And that’s, mean, that’s why for me, the podcast, sounds like with your writing practice too, and maybe this podcast as well, is it’s like, I mean, it’s amazing that we have people that listen. And I’m so grateful for people like you that do listen. And even if no one listened, Jen and I would probably still have those conversations because we find it beneficial for our own work.
Mickey Mellen (17:18)
Yeah.
Peter Shepherd (17:40)
that having to ask a question and tell a story and have no idea where we’re going for 20 minutes is the same skill set I think of coaching and facilitating and being able to think on your feet as a leader. So it’s like, it’s actually a really helpful practice that feeds the work I do.
Mickey Mellen (17:52)
Mm-hmm.
Well, you guys didn’t, if I remember correctly, you didn’t start a podcast. You were having these conversations anyhow and you realized they were so good, you auto record them and see what happens and it kind of just worked out that way. So that’s, yeah. Yeah.
Peter Shepherd (18:06)
That’s more or less what happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we thought, let’s
just record 10 and see what happens and see if we like them. And here we are, 300 and something episodes later.
Mickey Mellen (18:14)
Right, that’s amazing you’ve done that many. Also I’m kind of sad the Alt-NBA is no more because that’s how you met her, that’s how I met you, that’s how I get introduced to your podcast was actually someone else at the Alt-NBA like a year after saying, hey you need to listen to this podcast, like all the connections from that. I still keep up with a lot of folks from my class of Alt-NBA and yeah it’s unfortunate that’s not happening anymore but it’s still good that it’s still doing a lot of good in the world because of what it sparked in so many thousands of people so it’s been fantastic.
Peter Shepherd (18:25)
That’s wild.
Totally. And I mean, that’s actually
where I first discovered this book is like when I took the old MBA all those years ago, I think it was 2017. One of the books I received was the coaching habit. I’d never heard of it. I never knew who Michael Bungay Stenia was and I read it. And that was like the start of my journey into how much I love this book and how much I’m recommending this book and sort of codifying things that maybe I’d done a little bit myself, but hadn’t done other versions of. And that was, yeah, I was introduced to it through the old MBA. So I have a lot to thank that for. Yeah.
Mickey Mellen (18:49)
Hmm.
I didn’t know that. Okay. Nice.
When did you start coaching?
Peter Shepherd (19:08)
Well, that’s a great question because formerly it happened, I guess, after I was a student in the alt MBA, because I was asked to join the alt MBA as a coach. But this is why I think of coaching as a skillset is what I, what I’ve discovered is I had been coaching people without calling it coaching for years that in my work as a, at the time I was like a senior account manager at this, you know, essentially sort of consultancy in Australia.
Mickey Mellen (19:18)
Okay.
haha
Peter Shepherd (19:38)
I was helping clients solve problems and building programs to help them solve sort of organizational challenges. And the way I would do that was like sit down with the exec and ask them a bunch of questions and like kind of have a coaching conversation with them. But I would never have known that that’s what it was. That was just like how we were taught and trained to sort of interact with our clients and sort of serve them. And so it was sort of one of those weird ways of like, I discovered it, but I sort of discovered that I’d been doing a version of this for a while.
Mickey Mellen (19:47)
Right.
Yeah, yeah, it’s the tricky question because I say I’m not a coach like I’d like to get into it someday but between how conversations I have with clients and conversations with my team I am to some degree. So yeah, I don’t know. Yeah, you got to have different mile marks I started doing the team here I said became official here like it’s gonna be different steps versus the on-off switch So yeah in books like this certainly help
Peter Shepherd (20:13)
Right. Totally.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. mean,
even this podcast, feel like you’re demonstrating, you know, coaching conversation, you’re asking questions, you’re interested, you’re like following up, but this is a skill of being a coach, I think.
Mickey Mellen (20:32)
Yeah, I would agree with that. yeah, I picked up a lot of so many questions I use with clients as I’ve picked up from your show, just little things of, yeah. But one we use a lot is if we can’t come up with a good idea, like, all right, let’s start with all the bad ideas. Just little things we picked up from the show. Like, we’ll do that. We’ll list a whole bunch of bad ideas on the board that we wanted to. Like, wait, there’s maybe a nugget of something in here that we could spin around and just, yeah. Exactly, yeah. Sometimes the most ridiculous ones too, that if you make it slightly less ridiculous, it’s actually a pretty good idea. So yeah, it can be.
Peter Shepherd (20:44)
Nice. Yeah, yeah.
It’s not as bad as I thought it was.
Great,
I love that, that’s great practice.
Mickey Mellen (21:01)
It can be cool, but yeah.
We’re running a little low on time here, so let’s start heading in a little bit. But I’ve asked you a lot of questions. What other pieces from the book do you really want to share for people that haven’t read it or might want to read it? What are some other big takeaways that you’ve gotten out of that are worth sharing?
Peter Shepherd (21:17)
I think in short, the thing I love about this book is it’s trying to democratize and make accessible a coaching conversation. And so if nothing else, you either read this book or listen to this podcast and go the next time I’m in a conversation with a team member or even a friend or a leader, kind of like, what would it look like for me to ask one or two or three questions? I, or am I just even making myself more aware of
in that last meeting, I actually didn’t ask any questions whatsoever. So what if I asked one or two questions? And I think that’s all we’re talking about here is coaching again is such a nebulous term. I feel like looking at it as curiosity in action is a useful way to go, I can be curious. I can ask questions. And in doing so, I think what you’ll discover is you’ll learn so much more about the other person and about yourself just in asking questions.
Mickey Mellen (22:09)
Gotcha. I love that. Very cool. Well, Pete, this has been fantastic. I appreciate you coming on. Yeah, for those that don’t know, Pete’s in Australia, so we’re 11 hours apart on time zone. We made it work, so it’s been fantastic. I appreciate you making that happen. So how can people track you down and find out more about your work and your show and all that kind of stuff?
Peter Shepherd (22:19)
We did it.
I mean, human periscope.com is probably the best place. It’s got my link to podcasts and blog and email and all that jazz there. So feel free to reach out at any point. Anyone’s listening.
Mickey Mellen (22:34)
Cool, yeah, and their podcast, I think I mentioned it before, but yeah, the long and the short of it with Jen Waldman is fantastic show. The timing you do on each episode, like my show here is, yeah, 20, 25 minutes, whatever. You guys are like 18 minutes or whatever on the nose, like every, it’s amazing how precise you are every time. It’s fantastic, but yeah.
Peter Shepherd (22:50)
Yeah, it’s sort of
become a bit of I guess, a just a habit now. We just stop the conversation after 90 minutes naturally.
Mickey Mellen (22:54)
Yeah, you do, it
doesn’t just stop cold either. It seems like you plan the whole conversation that way. I know you haven’t, but it’s amazing. Check out his show, check out his site. I’ll put links in the show notes. Pete, it’s been fantastic. Thanks for joining me. All right, see ya.
Peter Shepherd (22:59)
Right. Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Leave a Reply